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Post by CurlyyHairGirl »

I didn't know, danke! I love AoA Kurt for some odd reason and I wanted to know more about him, esp. if 'e had a religion.
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Post by thylacine »

Quote: "I can't believe I missed this us Catholics get all the crap, nice to see that Kurt is helping reverse that ." Yes, that is right! I agree with you! The Catholic Church's leadership is rotten right now, but why should Catholic people, the majority of whom are decent, be the focus of so much prejudice these days? It's enough to make you feel like a mutant! :)

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Post by CurlyyHairGirl »

My mom doesn't even bother taking us to church anymore, mostly because the church we went to keeps changing the way it is being ran, it has been going down hill for years, so I think she wants to switch to a different church.
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Easter celebration: or, "Christ gives Satan the finger"

Post by Maelstrom »

Since there are so many of us of different theological persuasions on this thread, I thought it would be interesting to you if I related what an Orthodox Christian Easter celebration (also called Pascha) is like. I realized that the rituals used vary so much from sect to sect, we likely have no idea how another group celebrates the Resurrection.

First thing... Orthodox services start at 11:30pm Saturday night, and end sometime about 2 or 3am. We don't do midnight mass for Christmas, but we do for Easter. The younger children are brought to church in their PJs, with sleeping bags and pillows. Hell even the adults can have a hard time staying awake through this. ;) My first celebration, last year, I was falling asleep halfway through. :yawn Add to this the fact that there are candles involved, and life can get interesting. :shocked

A fair percentage of the first half hour is spent in near absolute darkness. We have candles, but they aren't lit yet. There is just enough light for the priest to see by the altar. Those of us in the choir had to use little LED lights to read our music. At the end of this half hour, near midnight, all the candles are lit, and there's a candlelit procession outside and around the church. The entire church is involved in the procession: only one person stays behind in the church (more about him later). When we get back to the entrance, the priest pounds on the closed door three times. The guy left inside asks who it is, and here the priest acts in the symbolic role of Christ, demanding to be allowed entry. This is repeated once, and then the door is opened, and everyone enters into a fully-lit church. And so we have the symbolic reenactment of His going down into Hell and freeing everyone who'd been stuck down there since Adam and Eve.

The next two some-odd hours are filled with liturgy that constantly reinforces the fact that He has risen from the grave. The actual chant is "Christ has risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs restoring life." Many times, the priest will "interrupt" his own service, walking up and down the aisle and shouting "Christ is risen!". The congregation responds with "Indeed He is risen!". This is done in several different languages, each one (and the correct response) printed on a small sheet you're given. This symbolizes the fact that the Resurrection touches the entire world. (This can sometimes be a bit difficult to follow.:smirk While most of us know the Greek call and response, it's harder to do this in Arabic or German. The end result being that there's a big response for English and Greek, and a more muddled response for all the others.:LOL) Aside from the constant focus on the Resurrection, and the fact that Hell got thoroughly pissed off, screwed over, and torn down when He went down to pay a social call :naughty, another notable difference between the Pascha liturgy and that of the regular Sabbath is the fact that there is no homily (sermon). The gospel is read, but for once it is not "explained" per say.

What I found the most impressive about the Orthodox service, as opposed to the Protestant ones I had attended in the past, is the participation and energy. The Presbyterian church I had gone to in my youth seemed very passive. You had the choir singing, you had a sermon, and there was a lot of life, but it seemed to be focused entirely in the pulpit and in the singing loft. The rest of the laity, while happy, was just passively receiving it all. (I imagine in a Baptist ceremony, where the whole congregation often joins in, this wouldn't be the case, but I digress. ;) ) In the Orthodox service, even though there's repetition on a grand scale (I lost track of how many times we heard and chanted Christ is Risen!), it serves to heighten the Earth-and-Heaven-shaking significance and joy of the Resurrection. Also, and for me this is very important, the Orthodox method of celebrating Easter placed it squarely as the most important religious holiday of the Christian calendar. On a strictly theological level, even as a pre-teen, I was always surprised at the cultural emphasis placed on Christmas, when Easter seemed like it should be the more important holiday. Yeah, sure, without His birth there could be no Resurrection, but the whole reason for His birth was the resurrection. Everything was leading to this, so He could wipe that slate clean. So why did it have to play second-fiddle to Christmas? (Which, coincidentally, wasn't even invented as a celebration until some time in the 4th century, while Passover/Pascha has always been celebrated without a break.)

I think it's probably because of its religious significance. It's one of the more "pure" religious holidays that we celebrate in the Christian culture, one which hasn't been overtaken by the secular aspect. There's more Easter decorations, candy, and bunny junk sold now than a generation ago, true, but it still doesn't hold a candle to the money pumped into Christmas lights, food, gifts, decorations, trees, trips, holiday parties, and so forth. Celebrating someone's brutal murder and resurrection isn't a cause for gift giving, while a birthday is.
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Originally posted by shakspear
Hell, by a Biblical definition, is simply and total absolute separation in every way, shape, and form from God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That is what Hell is.
So then biblical Hell is just oblivion. If God is everything, Hell would be nothing.

But to go to Heaven, you would have to give yourself up anyway. "Hell is other people", so to be perfectly happy everyone would have to give up what makes them a person, just to be able to get along perfectly with everyone else. So why not Hell?

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Post by Maelstrom »

:smirk I think you're closer to quoting "Black Adder". You know: the bit where he's been assigned the role as Bishop of Cantlebury or some damn fool thing, so that he can keep people from dying and leaving all their stuff to the church? Paraphrased:

Dying man: But I thought I needed to leave my wealth to the church to go to Heaven?

Black Adder: Weeellll, Heaven's not really all that it's cracked up to be. Heaven's fine for people who like playing harps, singing, talking to God. (evil grin) Hell's for people who like doing the other stuff.

Dying man: Really?

Black Adder: Oh, yes.

Dying man: *signs his property over to the king* Then I will leave my worldly wealth to the King, and may God damn me to Hell like the worthless wretch I am!
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Post by tarface »

yay! :D another Father Ted and Blackadder fan about the hell is other people comment, i meant that the characters in that play didn't live their lives according to what they wanted to be. They let themselves be defined by other people, now their hell is made all the more worse because they cannot exist without each other and define who they want to be. They are dependant on the others' existence, yet at the same time they will only cause each other misery for all eternity.
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Post by TelegramSam »

Father Ted is hilarious. Too bad I don't get BBC America anymore. I wish they'd release some region 1 DVDs of that show, I'd soooo buy it...
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Post by CurlyyHairGirl »

I get BBCA, but it is never on when I want to watch it.

We don't really do much for Easter in my family, we just have family visit and have a nice dinner together *huggles*
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Post by thylacine »

I think it's awful that in Boston Sean O'Malley won't let women participate in the "washing the feet" ritual anymore. Women have been in that for a long time, what is he trying to bring us back into the dark ages??? And the Vatican announced getting rid of altar girls too! I am so mad right now about that. This is so pre-Vatican 2 you guys. This is so backward. We need new leadership!!!
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Post by CurlyyHairGirl »

Why do people have to be so sexist? That is just wrong. We deserve to be treated as equals, man and woman.
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Post by thylacine »

I really don't understand it either. And another thing... why is the Catholic church in Boston making such a BIG ISSUE over this gay marriage thing? They just got over having their own problems, and now Sean O'Malley is encouraging this letter writing campaigan against politicians who vote for gay marriage... then he gets quoted in the Boston Globe as saying that all the problems in society are caused by liberals, feminists, and the Woodstock generation. Then he goes and closes down a third of all the churches in the area. What is up with this guy?
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Post by TelegramSam »

I'd say he has some serious personal issues.

Maybe a female hippie stole his wallet in the 60's...
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Post by CurlyyHairGirl »

Or maybe he has some serious psycological problems that he really needs to deal with, He should call Love Line, they'll talk to you about any problem, Dr. Drew has the answer for any problem and Adam Carolla is just there to bug drew and make a joke out of your problem, I love those guys:*)
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Post by Maelstrom »

Originally posted by thylacine
I really don't understand it either. And another thing... why is the Catholic church in Boston making such a BIG ISSUE over this gay marriage thing? They just got over having their own problems, and now Sean O'Malley is encouraging this letter writing campaigan against politicians who vote for gay marriage... then he gets quoted in the Boston Globe as saying that all the problems in society are caused by liberals, feminists, and the Woodstock generation. Then he goes and closes down a third of all the churches in the area. What is up with this guy?
Perhaps that's the point: to get people thinking about something else. Which immediate mental association would be less damaging to a diocese?

Boston = pedophile priests
Boston = overly-zealous Catholics

Three guesses as to which is more acceptable, and the first two don't count. :naughty

In all honesty, I haven't even heard of this new problem, somehow. I'll have to look it up so I can form a more coherent opinion on it. Right now, it looks like a diversion ploy.
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Post by thylacine »

It's like been in every Massachusetts parish lately, encouraging people to write their politicians to say no to gay marriage and gay this and gay that. Personally, from my point of view, I don't care that much about the issue either way. I just wanna come to church for an hour then go home. Why can't they talk about stuff from the New Testament like they used to? I am just so sick of the Boston Archdiocese being such a CIRCUS!!! Nightcrawler probably would love to go to church in Boston for that very reason... It's a circus and the leadership are a bunch of clowns!!!
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Post by TelegramSam »

Truly Biblically-based Christianity is a hard thing to find these days. It's too at-odds with modern western culture and most people are cowards.
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Post by Bamfette »

i don't think it's cowardly to believe something other than exactly what's in the bible if you think it's wrong, even if you only think it's wrong in parts, like the Old Testament.

besides, that's the problem with whatshisface in Boston. it IS biblically based, atleast to him. it may be based on a part of the bible that many people ocnsider to be severely out-dated, but... (not saying i agree with him, believe me)

the polarization on the same topic by people who share the same religion can be quite extreme. see here: http://www.livejournal.com/community/id ... 38089.html
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Post by TelegramSam »

I really don't understand some people's obsession with telling everyone else how to run their lives.


Personally, I don't believe in the banning of homosexual marriage because I do believe in seperation of Church and State. Religion getting involved in the government isn't good for the government OR the church if history has anything to say on the matter. Also I personally believe in minding one's own damn business, and so long as gay people aren't harming anyone else, who cares?

meh...
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Post by CurlyyHairGirl »

Originally posted by TelegramSam

Personally, I don't believe in the banning of homosexual marriage because I do believe in seperation of Church and State.

Also I personally believe in minding one's own damn business, and so long as gay people aren't harming anyone else, who cares?

meh...
Exactly! I think that is the persons choice on whether or not they will get married w/same or opposite sex, not the gov's or the church's, and yes some people will object to my opinion, maybe not in here, but that is their opinion, and this is mine........GO HOMOSEXUALS!!!!!
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Post by Maelstrom »

Unfortunately, that's where things get really, really sticky. :urg A marriage is both a civil and religious ceremony.

Originally, the government was the religious order, period. The tribal shamans ran everything, then the priests when things really got going in places like Sumer. At first, priests ran things in Egypt to the point where they killed the old king when he got too feeble to rule. But after a few hundred years the king got more temporal power (probably due to a standing army at his side :smirk) and the priests had to slack off, replacing the human sacrifice with a "rebirth" ceremony (Heb Seb). Rome got a name as being the "most pious city" in the ancient world because there were so many religious ceremonies to perform, and these ceremonies went hand in hand with running everything.

As you can imagine, it was all too common for ancient Mediterranian priests to be bribed or otherwise corrupted in a "worldly" fashion, which was one of the reasons Judaism developed the ideas of chastity, charity, and at least a little bit of separation. The Christians took this even further, inventing the monastic, reserved life, which was supposed to remove you from all worldly temptations. But, even so, religious law ran things. Priests had as high a stature as kings, in some ways.

Marriage, one of every society's most fundamental ceremonies, had religious signifigance due to its primal importance. You *need* kids in your old age to support you. You *need* sons to inherit. (Daughters, regrettably, were less desirable... :rolleyes) And so getting married meant nothing less than survival and continuation of your people.

Now marriage has a slightly different significance. Our society has grown so complex, with financial, tax, and other rules, that the government has invented whole civil statues for married couples. It's no longer vital to your small tribe's survival that you have as many children as possible, and in America woman can inherit property, too. But the basis of it is still in religion, and a sacred vow to take care of your partner until their death. We have a layer of civil legistlation over what is a religious ceremony.

And now... get ready for the nasty, complex stuff. Because of its religious significance, the idea of same-sex marriage scares the holy shit out of the more conservative parishoners, and even gives the more liberal ones reason to pause. Conservatives we can understand, because they're convinced everyone but them is going to burn in hell anyways. But for the liberal authorities, it's not so much the idea of "legitimizing" homosexuality that worries them as the precedent it sets. If you can redefine an institution that has only allowed male-female bonds, in any culture, from the beginning of time (which in itself is a controversial view: just ask Bunny about documented same sex marriages in the Middle Ages;) ), then what's to stop polygamists from screaming "foul" when we refuse to let them marry four fifteen year old girls at once? And that's the mildest example I can think of.

In a way, they have a point with this. America has gotten so "sue happy" and overly sensitive to "political correctness" that people are willing to sue for the most absurd things, claiming them as God-given rights. For every honest man trying to make a point and change an injustice, there's a Fred Phelps harrasing everyone he can see and gumming up the legal system like sand in an engine.


An example, and I'm 100% serious about this: a friend of mine, who runs the fan club for the San Jose Stealth LaCrosse team, has been sued, along with Lockheed-Martin, Gilette, and everyone else who has used the word "Stealth" in a commercial sense, by a guy who claims to have copywrited the word. So the Stealth team, the Stealth Fighter, the Stealth Bomber, the Stealth rollercoaster, the Stealth razor, and everything else all belongs to him now. This is a "fishing" expedition, to be sure: he's trying to see how many big corporations he can blackmail into giving him a few grand to shut up, since it'll be cheaper for them to buy him out than to mount any legal defense, but the fact he's even doing it shows you how insane our legal system has become.

(And I'm not even going to go into what the Scientologists have been doing for with their army of lawyers the past 20 years.... :urg)

So on one hand we have dedicated couples, who have been together for many years, and just want the civil ability to take care of one another in old age. On the other we have the tenets of a popular religion that says "you can't do that; you're gay". And we have a government that is strongly influenced by the religious side, but is now starting to finally see that it isn't their job to dictate moral standards. All they can, and should, do is dictate sterile, legalistic, civil law. And, in a civil sense, there is no reason why a monomagous couple shouldn't be able to take care of each other in old age, so civil unions are starting to be bandied about. A civil union sidesteps any religious sense, but allows the same rights any heterosexual couple enjoys.

No, you're not really married, but at least you'll be able to take care of your lifelong partner.

It's the best they can do, and really the best they should do. If this is what has the Boston Diocese up in arms, the idea of civil unions, they have NO RIGHT to scream, any more than the government has the right to interfere in church doctrine. It's a civil matter, guys. Stay out.
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Post by CurlyyHairGirl »

Life is to freakin' complicated these days. I wish I could just forget the world ride my horse into the sunset and play the harmonika, livin' off the fat of the land without the gov interfearing with my life*this is truely my dream in life*:cowboy
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Post by thylacine »

In the Boston Globe today some cardinal was interrogating Candidate Kerry. I am mad at that too. How dare he tell a presidential candidate how to vote and how to think. No one should tell anyone how to think. The mind is the most intimate place a person has, and no one has the right to invade the privacy of your own mind by telling you how to think. Does the Boston Archdiocese think they can control America by controlling how the next president thinks? How dare they? That is so wrong. They have just no right to interfere with the political process whatsoever. They are threatening to excommunicate Kerry because he supports abortion. Personally, I don't believe in abortion. But to hold that over someone's head just because they think differently is extortion, pure and simple.
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Post by BamfChyck »

Originally posted by Maelstrom

No, you're not really married, but at least you'll be able to take care of your lifelong partner.

It's the best they can do, and really the best they should do. If this is what has the Boston Diocese up in arms, the idea of civil unions, they have NO RIGHT to scream, any more than the government has the right to interfere in church doctrine. It's a civil matter, guys. Stay out.
Thanks, Mael. You always have a way of putting things clearly and respectfully.

There's a lot that can be done to protect a same-gender union. Domestic partnership benefits are available in my area, to any couple (any gender combination) who registers for them, so my family is lucky that way. Of course, that's part of why we live here.
We also have the expensive all-but-married paperwork to protect us should one become incapacitated or a parent. There are books available so people can DIY it, but we went the lawyer route.

But I AM REALLY MARRIED!I was married in my church (well, technically outside in the garden, but that's because it wasn't raining that day) by our priest and we've got a certificate that recognizes us in the eyes of the Diocesan cannon law.
It was very important to me that we have a marriage, not just a blessing of our union. So we got it. It's available if you look around for it.

I'd like for my government to catch up and recognize the value of my family.
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Post by Bamf Bunny »

Originally posted by Maelstrom
A marriage is both a civil and religious ceremony.
A marriage can be both a civil and religious ceremony. Marriages by justices of the peace, Vegas Elvis weddings, and a lot of write-your-own vows aren't religious, but they still confer all the rights of marriage.
If you can redefine an institution that has only allowed male-female bonds, in any culture, from the beginning of time
This is breathtakingly untrue, Amy. Since you've decided to dismiss the same-sex weddings performed by your own Greek Orthodox church - without a word of explanation - how about Aztec, Incan, Mayan, Mojave and Zuni same-sex marriage in what's now the US? Chuckchee same-sex marriage in Siberia? Chinese same-sex marriage during the Yuan and Ming dynasties? Igbo and Meru same-sex marriage in Nigeria? Roman same-sex marriage around the first-century? Japanese same-sex marriage under the Tokagawa dynasty?

In fact, when lawsuits challenging the constitutionality of marriage were filed in Hawaii a decade ago, the plaintiffs cited the Hawaiian consitution's stipulation of respect for native practices ... and the native Hawaiian tradition of mahus, who were men who married other men.
what's to stop polygamists from screaming "foul" when we refuse to let them marry four fifteen year old girls at once?
Our long-standing legal principle that restricts most rights and privileges to consenting adults, perhaps?
But now I'm confused, Amy. You've already said that marriage is defined by what's come before in human history (or what you're willing to admit has come before ...) But polygamy, and child marriage, are also very widespread. By your own logic, you ought to be defending our hypothetical old Mormon.
In a way, they have a point with this. America has gotten so "sue happy" and overly sensitive to "political correctness" that people are willing to sue for the most absurd things, claiming them as God-given rights.
The 14th Amendment of the United States Consitution, also called the Equal Protection Clause, prohibits states from denying any person within their jurisdiction the equal protection of the law. It prevents the states from extending rights to one class of people and not another, unless the states can show that the classification is necessary and shows a compelling interest.

Our courts have been very reluctant to forbid opposite-sex adults to marry. As the Supreme Court wrote in Loving v. Virginia, "Marriage is one of the 'basic civil rights of man' ..." Serial killers on death row can marry. Twenty-time divorcees can marry (and never mind that the Greek Orthodox church limits you to three marriage per lifetime tops; they don't have to perform weddings they don't approve of.) In general, any single man and single woman can marry each other if they care to.

The lawsuits about same-sex marriage today all come down to this same principle: marriage laws extend rights to one group but not another, without constitutionally defensible reasons. It doesn't matter what other societies have done before - if it did, we wouldn't have a Constitution in the first place; we'd have the kings that everyone else had before the founding of the United States.

Equal protection is one of the central foundations of U.S. law. I'm not sure I see your comparison between this and suing a fan club because you've tried to trademark a common word in their name.
A civil union sidesteps any religious sense, but allows the same rights any heterosexual couple enjoys.
No civil union legislation currently proposed or existant in the United States does any such thing. They confer only a small subset of the rights given to married couples.
It's the best they can do, and really the best they should do.
No. The founding principles of our country demand equal application of the law.
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