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Post by thylacine »

At my church, we pass out turkeys at Thanksgiving, and gift certificates for grocery stores to the poor. We give away clothes, toys, blankets, furniture, boxes of canned food, rent aid, and etc. I know for a fact that some people would not get by without the church helping them through the month. That's why is pisses me off to hear all this stuff about how bad the Catholic church is. I know a priest who would give money out of his own pocket if someone really needed it, and he can't even wear his collar outside the building on the street because people might hurl stuff -- you tell people you're Catholic these days and they treat you LIKE A MUTANT!!!
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Post by Maelstrom »

And there, ladies and gentlemen, is the subject in a nutshell. Those who are honestly religious, and follow the spirit of their teachings (whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Pagan, or whatever) will "put their money where their mouth is". They'll do the hard stuff their conscience, and their faith, dictates. They'll knit socks for the poor, or help work at a soup kitchen, or (if they're financially fortunate), they'll give a bit extra to various charities. And they'll do it for anyone. People they know, people they don't, and even people they don't personally like. Because, at its core, every faith demands we try to forgive and get along with everybody.

The hypocrites don't bother. They're too busy demanding unquestioning faith and threatening you with eternal damnation if you don't do what they believe their religion says. They're screaming "God hates fags!" on a streetcorner in America. They're howling for bloodshed outside a Mosque in Saudi Arabia. They're setting fire to a busload of Muslim pilgrims in India. After all, taking your frustrations out on an enemy is so much easier and more gratifying than forgiving, feeding, and clothing them, isn't it? ;)
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Post by Warbird »

That's the reason that I feel that good works are more important than faith when it comes to the Hevan and Hell issue. I don't think God will favor the belivers who didn't act apon their faith over the non-belivers that acted with a good heart. People often say that Catholics stress behavior and charity work too much, but isn't that the essence of Christianity? To help your brother man?

Also on a historical note. In reference to Thylacine's comment on his Catholic churches food and clothing drives, Catholics in America are historicly the poorist groups of people. The Irish, Polish, and Italians, that flocked to this country were some of the very poorest immegrants. They were aslo all most exclusivly Catholic. As a result it bacame very important to the community to help others once you began to have extra money and clothing. You're friends and neighbors often still were impoverished. Hand-me-downs were given to the church when children grew, even by the poor, and they were redistributed to others in the community in need. In this system if you gave, you recived. Also, the church had enough money often to give away some relife to it's congregation. As a result, as the community became wealthier, it had allready developed a strong tradition and system of helping the poor.
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Post by TelegramSam »

The essence of Christianity is that Christ, the son of God, died for our sins.

The beef that Martin Luthor had with the medieval Catholic church was the notion that you could buy your stairway to heaven, when in truth Christ's sacrifice was a gift freely given and that all the good works done and all the indulgences bought in the world wouldn't get you past the pearly gates if you had no faith. Frankly, I tend to agree with him. I'm not saying good works aren't important, though, because they are. But the point is that If you have faith, you will do good works as an expression of your faith and your gratitude for Christ's death, not because you want to win brownie points with God (which is kind of a selfish attitude anyhow).
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Post by Warbird »

The necassary belife to be Christian is that Christ died for our sins. By essence I meant beyond that belife, the way of life that Christians are supposed to lead. Jesus even says that when you help your fellow man you help him. (very Paraphrased.) I can't belive that god would turn his back on an Athiest if they lead a truely good life and helped others. I'm not saying brownie points, that is a sick modivation... however, it's an interesting point. If someone has that sad modivation, they're obviousely a beliver. Are they better, or more likely to go to heavan than a non-beliver that actaully WANTS to do good? I think God would be more concerned with their Purity of heart.

And by the way, I was taught that it was mostly rich people paying money to have their sins absolved and having preists turn the other cheek for them. It was corrupt yes. But it was a scheme to get money, which is wrong, not the actual Dogma of the Church. Regular members of the church didn't practice this and were propor Catholics.
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Post by TelegramSam »

Well Luthor's beef was with the people that were running the church, not the common folks. His indignation was a result of the fact that he felt the church was exploiting, misleading, and abusing common people. It wasn't only the rich buying those indulgences.

On another note, Christ said in so many words that He alone carried the keys of heaven. I still don't think the best athiest in the world will cut the mustard in the end, after all, they are still guilty of the sin of rejecting Christ. Sort of like recieving the president's pardon from death row but throwing it back in his face. But nevertheless, feel free to disagree with me.
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Post by Lauren »

yes, but if someone who's an atheist or something else that doesn't have Christ, but has done good things and such, do you really think God's gonna throw them out because of one little thing?
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Post by Wolvertique »

It is sad that all Catholics get tainted with the "sins" of a few. ;) But I think it's a good thing that people are looking good and hard at the church, making sure that it's living up to its obligations. I wish people would do that with all institutions, so we can be sure our children and the people we love are safe. A roommate of mine in college, e.g., was abused by a priest, and when I found out due to the investigation that he might well have gotten off and kept doing it...you have no idea how sick I felt. No, I don't blame all Catholics for what was done to her, for the fact that she was an anorexic control freak, but I do blame the church structure that let priests do it over and over again.

I agree that living one's faith is more important than preaching it, but then again, I'm a member of a non-proselytizing religion. ;)

I don't reject any Gods. I reject human beliefs about the Gods, be they the obviously sick "God wants you to murder someone" beliefs or the more controversial "God believes you have to believe X or you're going to be tortured forever." I believe those are human beliefs, not the Gods' beliefs, thus I can't be rejecting the Gods themselves, just erroneous beliefs about them. (BTW, the latter "call God this or he'll torture you" I consider to be blasphemy, as no human being would torture anyone we loved for eternity for calling us "Lauren" rather than "Wolvertique," for example...and the Gods are supposed to be better than we at love...)
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Post by TelegramSam »

Originally posted by Lauren
yes, but if someone who's an atheist or something else that doesn't have Christ, but has done good things and such, do you really think God's gonna throw them out because of one little thing?
Bluntly, yes. That is what the bible states. Human beings are flawed from birth no matter how much they try to be perfect, and without being made perfect in God's eyes through Christ's blood, they will be chucked out of his sight. Hell isn't fire by the way.The Dante version that most people have concocted in their heads is pretty silly. I don't believe in purgatory either. It is, simply, a complete and utter separation from God. It's not a "place" it's a state of being; namely, one of complete isolation from both creation and God. Make of that what you will.

Like I said before, you're welcome to disagree with me here. I'm not really out to convince anyone, but these are my own beliefs.
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Post by thylacine »

Quote: "Also on a historical note. In reference to Thylacine's comment on his Catholic churches food and clothing drives, Catholics in America are historicly the poorist groups of people."

Hi. I'm a she, not a he! :)

That is also correct that Catholic immigrants were historically among the poorest people in the past. My theory is that this is part of the reason that there is so much anti-Catholic feeling in this country. The dominant group was, and still is, what we commonly call the WASP -- white, anglo-saxon protestant. You know the kind I mean, belongs to the country club, plays golf, runs a big corporation, etc... Then you have the Catholic immigrant or second generation person who works for the rich man. Catholics and Protestants are not radically different the way Christians and Hindus are in their beliefs, but it becomes a class situation. The upper classes need to keep the working classes below them, and the working classes resent it. Many of the stereotypes about working and poor people are the same stereotypes they stick to Catholics: They're uneducated, they're ignorant, they're dirty, they're superstitious, they have too many kids, they don't think for themselves, they all beat they're wives, they all drink, and etc. Many of you may not have heard some of those, but I have... !
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Post by Maelstrom »

Originally posted by thylacine
That is also correct that Catholic immigrants were historically among the poorest people in the past. My theory is that this is part of the reason that there is so much anti-Catholic feeling in this country. The dominant group was, and still is, what we commonly call the WASP -- white, anglo-saxon protestant. You know the kind I mean, belongs to the country club, plays golf, runs a big corporation, etc... Then you have the Catholic immigrant or second generation person who works for the rich man. Catholics and Protestants are not radically different the way Christians and Hindus are in their beliefs, but it becomes a class situation. The upper classes need to keep the working classes below them, and the working classes resent it. Many of the stereotypes about working and poor people are the same stereotypes they stick to Catholics: They're uneducated, they're ignorant, they're dirty, they're superstitious, they have too many kids, they don't think for themselves, they all beat they're wives, they all drink, and etc. Many of you may not have heard some of those, but I have... !
I think another thing that strengthens these steroetypes is the very worldview of Catholic vs. Protestant. In many instances, Protestants (especially Calvinists) believed that God showed you some of your blessings here. (The Calvinists had this interesting idea that you were predestined to succeed or fail, but by doing a lot of hard work, you would be able to "see" this future of success? Or something like that. It's kind of loopy to me: if you work hard, you'll likely be successful, so then we get into that whole chicken-or-egg argument....) Roman and Orthodox Catholicism is more concerned with the afterlife than this one.

These somewhat conflicting worldviews, now vs. hereafter, can make for some very different economic decisions. If you believe that your financial success is an indicator of God's favor (not the ONLY, just ONE of many), you're more motivated to acculmulate wealth than one who sees financial success as just another "thing" that makes life easier.

There are advantages and drawbacks to both views. The belief that some of your gifts now are a reflection of your spiritual status can encourage you to work hard and succeed, which can lift up a lot of other people in turn. However, it can also lead to the "worship" of wealth above all else, selfish, hoarding behavior, and constant discontentment with what you have.

The "live for the hereafter" view tends to make life much more bearable no matter what your "economic station" is. If you're content with your lot in life, knowing that no matter what, it'll get better in the end, your life can be that much easier. However, this view can be abused by a dishonest few. "Wordly" priests have been known to demand more than their flock can afford, with the admonition that "wealth is evil, spiritual wealth is everything, so give all your stuff to ME (God's representative)". And there are always those that think giving their wealth away can buy their way into Heaven (there's that Indulgence thing again.... :rolleyes).

(The one thing I don't believe is that the "afterlife" view breeds laziness. I have yet to see someone who is poor and religious who would dare sit on their hinder instead of go out and work for their daily bread, let alone do all they could to better the lives of their family. The "welfare deadbeats" that we always hear about on TV or in political speeches are a result of an "entitlement" culture, not a "who cares about this life" idea.)

I walk something of a line between both views. I believe that there is nothing wrong with the acculmulation of wealth, so long as it isn't your entire life. I believe that we can "make" some of our own blessings by giving in good faith to those who are in need, as good works do come around threefold (in one way or another). Though I strive to improve my lot, I'm never discontent with my material goods.

But I am not willing to devote constant 70 hour weeks to the pursuit of wealth, because I believe my time is more valuable than the extra dough. I'm just not willing to do the things that would make me a millionaire. I have obligations to my family, my friends, and my spiritual well-being. What use is all that money if you're constantly stressed out? It's one thing to work long, hard hours because you have little choice. It's another to do it just because you want more stuff.
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Post by thylacine »

You ought to tell that to my uncle! He is worth 1.5 million and won't heat his house, buy new clothes, travel, eat out, go to a doctor, etc. because "it costs money!" He walks to the YMCA to use their free showers to save on his water bill and reads the newspaper at the local library so he won't pay for the newspaper. Sick, huh?
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Post by TelegramSam »

Sounds like he needs some ghosts. :D


Or a good psychiatrist.... :X
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Post by Gaz »

It doesn't sound like he would be willing to pay for a psychiatrist :LOL
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Post by Warbird »

Hi. I'm a she, not a he! :)
Nothing personal. When I'm not sure, I always use the mascaline. Less girls get all worked up when accidently referded to in the incorrect gender than guys. One of those wierd PC things.

I'm gonna have to go ahead and dissagree that being a non-beliver is completely damning. Yes I totally agree that it's a Grave sin, but so are rage and envy. Every one commits them. Even Jesus had a fit of rage. I'm pretty sure he got in. ;)

But like Sam, it's just my belife and oppinion. I'll agree to disagree all the way.

Also, I've always belived in purgetory, but my entire family( and 95% of my extended family) is Catholic. Now, I know a lot of people don't, but I was wondering if it was only Catholics that do, or if other groups do too? I know many who don't, I'm only curiouse about who does.
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Post by TelegramSam »

Feeling anger isn't a sin, regardless of what old pope Gregory said. It's how you act upon it that is either sinful or not. Jesus' anger was justified, as were his actons.
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Post by Lauren »

well you can't neccassarily take everything the Bible says as true since it was people who wrote it in the first place. God could have easily changed the rules on the accepting Christ issue.
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Originally posted by TelegramSam
Feeling anger isn't a sin, regardless of what old pope Gregory said. It's how you act upon it that is either sinful or not. Jesus' anger was justified, as were his actons.
If it's okay for Jesus, it's okay for me! *smacks someone who's bugging her* Perfectly justified. :D
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Post by Wolvertique »

Geez, I'm agreeing with Lauren again. Why can't you ever say something controversial? ;)
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Post by Lauren »

Controversial? Hmmm controversial controversial...

Honestly? Even though I was raised Catholic I actually think most of it is BS, but that's because you have to realize that the Bible was written by people. Hell, I could write a book and say that everything in it is true too if I wanted.

On the history channel sunday I think they are going to unearth missing parts of the Bible.
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Post by Wolvertique »

BLASPHEMER! :eek

I'm having too much fun with this.

Hey, everything I've written in the Fuzzy Visions forum is absolute truth. I swear. But I try not to.

Cool. Finally digging up the real Ten Commandments, huh? I bet people will feel really silly when they find out they were really just directions on how to do laundry. ;)
Mystique: "How would you like to come see some really awful black velvet paintings of bullfighters?"
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Mystique: "Just bullfighters...that's all they have on my motel room wall."
--Wolverine #51, "The Crunch Conundrum"

"Scott, everybody knows J-P would slap us all silly and make us little French speaking clones of him if he could." -- Bobby Drake
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Post by Lauren »

wow...you really ARE having way too much fun with this:LOL
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Post by Wolvertique »

Fanfiction.net is unavailable right now, and it's only a few minutes till work. I'm in a very silly mood. I should probably write something. Religious. Yeah. Gotta stay on topic.

Silly and religious...hm...any chance any X-man's a Discordian? Maybe Bobby Drake?

(Discordia is a religion that is a joke. Some Pagans like it. Look it up, I'm too hyper to post a link right now.)
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"Scott, everybody knows J-P would slap us all silly and make us little French speaking clones of him if he could." -- Bobby Drake
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Post by TelegramSam »

Somebody bugging you isn't a justified reason for smacking them. Tsk, tsk. *puts you in time-out corner*

:rolleyes

:D
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Post by Lauren »

but didn't Jesus kind of give people holy smacks when they ticked him off?
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