Nightcrawler/Religious & Spiritual Discussion

[Maelstrom]

*sigh* Yep, yep, yep. Strange how things work, isn't it? I honestly don't understand why the fundlets think Catholics worship the devil. I think it's all the symbols and rites they hate. Like I said: if you want a window into the mind of Fundamentalist paranoia, take a look at the Jack Chick Museum of Fine Art (search an engine for the title). It's funny and sad at the same time. There's a guy who'd be positive that Kurt was the antiChrist. And he's Catholic? Proof positive!

[Lauren]

Man... anyone who messes with Kurt messes with me, and you mess with me, fingers and toes go missing dernit!

Why is there such a big thing against Catholics anyway? I mean, sure we were mean and bad in the past, but most religions have their sour points....except Buddhisim, their still cool...

I wonder if Kurt wold make a good Buddhist:?

[rockstar]

Just goes to show that you never know a person until you take the time to KNOW the person.

"Most people will never know anything beyond what they see with their own two eyes."

Main theme of Nightcrawler: Don't judge a book by it's cover.

Nightcrawler is judged and ostracized because of his appearence the same way many Catholics are ostrasized because of their faith.
And you know what? It sucks.

[Lauren]

Honestly, I actually lost a friend because they found out I was Catholic. They said I was going to hell and I said I'd probably meet them there...Still, it was kinda depressing... Kurt cheered me up though! I loves him because he always cheers me up.

[Maelstrom]

One of the things to remember: Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, and countless others are Religions, ways of preparing yourself for the hereafter. They are manners of worship. Bhuddism, Daoism, and so forth are Philosophies, which are ways of living here and now. The former can lend itself to extreme behavior much easier than the latter. That's why you never hear about extremists Bhuddists rioting or starting a holy war. They think of the here and now and of how to expand consciousness, rather than planning for a future that has no basis in anything other than faith.

Lauren, don't feel too bad about "losing" a friend like that. My mother, who was just a non-denominational Christian at that time, had a mormon girl looking at her very hard for several minutes, and when she asked her why, the girl said she was looking for my mom's horns. Seems she'd been told that anyone who wasn't Mormon, yet claimed to be a follower of Christ, was a demon in disguise...

[rockstar]

ok, I'm sorry if i'm annoying anyone by compairing Catholics to the stuff in X2, but this is the last thing. I promise.

"We're here to stay."

Whatever some people may have against religions other than their own, they need to get over it. Until Jesus comes down to Earth or until the world as we know it ends, there is going to be many different religions.
If people are going to say stuff about Catholics, they should at least be sure about the facts before they open their mouths. CATHOLICS DO NOT WORSHIP THE DEVIL!!!

[Lauren]

really? Then I guess Kurt's disguise isn't working huh?

[Warbird]

What I was told is that because we have statues and prayrs for Mary, we worship false idels which is in turn, warshiping satan. My reply was that if Jesus gave Mary undying love and respect than she deserves to be aknowlaged a bit more than "his mom". It's not like we sit there worshiping her image or praying to her as our savoir. It's fine to aknowlage how very important she is though. I find the whole thing frustrating. People don't understand my religion so I'm going to hell? whatever. I like to think that God is more forgiving than that. Like I said before and many of you have said, it's so wonderful that Kurt puts a positive spin on Catholisism when most people think it's very negative.

[taekwondodo]

Originally posted by Warbird
I like to think that God is more forgiving than that.

You've hit *one* of the many reasons that I am not religious in the least. If there is a God as the assorted Christian faiths insist, I'd like to think that he's not so petty as to care what manner you worshipped him in - or didn't for that matter - so long as you were sincere and tried to be a good person. I must admit that if I were ever to espouse a Christian faith - which is unlikely ever to happen - it would doubtless be Catholicism or perhaps Anglicanism. Purely for very shallow reasons however - I love the pageantry and formality of Catholic worship. I've had many Catholic friends (grew up in a heavily Catholic community) and have been to more than a few masses and spoken to more than a few priests. I didn't share their faith, but I must say that I've found them uniformly to be good men for whom I had much respect. You've got to respect someone who believes so strongly in an ideal that they're willing to literally dedicate their entire life to it. I can't even imagine how difficult that must be. It is a shame that the Church has dealt so poorly with its 'bad apples' that they have succeeded in giving a very bad name to priests and by extension the Church in general.

To add a somewhat different perspective to your religious discussion, I'd like to contribute the viewpoint of an agnostic leaning towards atheism. I get rather tired of the assumption that people who follow no religion have no moral code. It seems to me rather pathetic to assume that the only thing which can keep people on the straight and narrow so to speak is the threat of eternal damnation for their misdeeds. Some things are *wrong* simply because they are. You don't need to threaten me with God's wrath to get me to recognize them or adhere to them. I am, in fact, a much more moral person than many very devout individuals I know (not all, of course, but quite a few). I am also considerably more tolerant of some things - though less so of others. As a parent I can certainly see the appeal of religion to some. I had many agnostic friends who 'found religion' upon becoming parents - part of the appeal being how much easier it is to answer so many of the 'why' questions a little person asks by being able to say 'because God said so' rather than having to actually come up with a rational answer. (Yes, I do know a number of people who have explained the importance of their religion to them at least partly in these terms. Most notably some friends in law school.)

To end this rather long rant - I respect your right to be religious. Catholics as much as any other group. I wish that more religious people would respect my right not to be and my right to raise my children how *I* see fit. (You'd be amazed how many people think there's nothing wrong with trying to *convert* my kids b/c we're not religious where it would never occur to them if we were just Jewish or Muslim or a competing Christian faith. But lord the hell that would break loose if I tried to do the same to their kids.)

Very interesting discussion, btw.

[thylacine]

This discussion is turning out totally awesome (sorry for being so 80's)!

Bamfchyck, that is cool that Kurt got you back into church & stuff.

To you other guys... Yeah... I just cannot figure how so many people think that Catholics worship the devil. I just do not get that one! Or maybe you get a lot of that where you live? Is is like in the South, or something?

Where I live, you get a lot of this kind of stereotyping: That Catholics are "uneducated" or "ignorant." People sometimes think that Catholics don't think for themselves and just "do what they're told." Like hello? They're wrong, honey! That's the line I hear. If yah wanna hear a real bad one... I went out with this Wiccan on a date. He was bragging that he was Wiccan, trying to scare me or impress me. I just so did not care, since I'd come across so many various types in my life... I told him I was Catholic since he asked. He laughed, "Catholic girls! I know what they're like! Family values. Do everything they're told. Like to get down on their knees!" Evil Bastard!

Anyway... no, I don't know if Daredevil is Catholic. I never read that one! I am also an X-Files fan, so if people care, Dana Scully is Catholic... Mulder just believes in aliens!

I'm glad I started this discussion. I thought that I'd get NO RESPONSE at all, since people don't seem that interested in religion these days.

If people wanna think that Catholics worship the devil, let's make Kurt Wagner the patron saint of mutants! They can make little gold holy medals with his image on it!

You can tell everyone who asks, that's St. Wagner, patron of all lost mutants, whom God gave the miracle of teleportation!

Anyway... I don't mind if Kurt became a priest and stayed single, but personally, I don't think it's a good idea, since he would not have time to also be an X-Man. How could he do both?

[Lauren]

Actually, that's a good point too. My aunt's an atheist and she sometimes complains that most people tend to think that atheists have no moral codes. Now to me, I don't care what you are. Heck, I have a friend who's actually a Satanist, and they're a pretty cool person. The whole "kill and drink kitten blood" is not what normal Satanists do apparently, they just happen to think God and Satan are on the same level, but Satan is better *shrug* meh

Going back to the atheist thing, I think the only reason people put down Atheists is because the more vocal ones tend to make all atheists look like whiners who go around saying "We need to change this and we need to change that because I don't believe it and it's not fair to ME so YOU have to change everything to better suit MY wants and needs." I know most atheists aren't like that, but with every other group out there, it just takes a few to screw it up for everyone else you know?

St. Wagner that sounds awesome! but do you think the Pope would really let a comic character be named a saint:? Maybe if we asked real nicely?:oops

[Maelstrom]

I think the term "Satanist" is kind of a misnomer, because there isn't really any organized religion around it. Yeah, yeah, There was a "church of Satan" in the 70s, but it was a real joke.... There are no extablished, traditional, "accepted" ritual methods of actually worshipping the JudeoChristian devil. People just kind of slap together stuff that sounds or looks right (mainly gathered from horror films) and claim that it's the real deal.

That's what really decides the difference between a religion and a cult, for me. Time is one thing: it needs to have been around for a very long time. The next is established, unbroken traditions. Satanism doesn't have that. (Unfortunately, neither do most of the new age "Wiccian", "witchcraft", or "Neo-pagans", but that's another story entirely....)

So far as I can see, Satanism is the ultimate boogeyman. It's the perfect, irredeemable enemy; elusive, invisible, everywhere, and fits whatever mold you want. Problem is, as a organized religion, or even a cult, it just doesn't exist... so you have to make a boogeyman out of somethine else.... Something that's real.

Humanity defines itself more by its enemies than its friends. By saying "I am NOT that", you also emphatically define what you are. We need a "them" to be "us" against. This is why I don't think we'll have world peace until we discover aliens. Then we'll have a whole new "them."

Regrettably, "mutants" fit the bill just fine.

[Warbird]

I've always been down with the idea of atheism. Most of the people I know who are, are actually some of the nicest and good peopel I know. They also always explain themselves in a similar fasion "It's not that I'm against god or religion, but there's nothing in it that I can relate/ belive in". I personaly think that that is very respectable. We all have our own cup of tea and it's rediculous that people can hate each other over religion. Do you think that god would like the idea that wars are carried out in his name? Anyway, I also agree with the idea that modern satanism is a bit of a farse. It's flashy but most of the members just do it for attention. I'm not saying there bad people or anything, but it's not real to me. I could be wrong though, all new religions are met with resistance and misunderstanding, including christianity. maybe they are to? I don't know, It's not for me to say. Anyway my origional point was that I think Atheism is as valid as any religuos group. I can't belive that some one could think it's ok to try and convert anyone especially just because they're atheist. Let people belive what they want. If they want you religion in their life they'll ask you.

[rockstar]

good point, Maelstrom.

I feel silly for saying this, but I still get confused about this whole Religion thing. Pretty much since I was born, I've only been taught about the Catholic religion. I know about other religions, but not as much as i think I should.
Could someone explain the difference between a Religion and a Faith?

CNN is on the TV right now, and they're talking about the "War on Christianity." When did this happen?

[Northstars Love]

Actually it is faith in Christ that we must follow. Not religion. The Catholic Church being the oldest institution of Christianity has over the centuries given the false belief that you cannot be saved without the intercession of the Mother Church. Religion likes to play the belief that they are needed along side the savior's sacrifice upon Calvary. Not so.

Faith is what Christ taught. He told his Apostles to have faith constantly. Even Christ himself said, "Do as the Pharisee's tell you but do not take their example." In other words don't practice your faith as they do. They do it to be seen. Going somewhere to pray to God alone is not doing it to be seen.

Religion is summoned up as a specific set of beliefs or worship that is built around God. That is why there is so many Christian denominations because each one of those are different from one another.

Being Catholic I really don't follow the religion anymore. But I have faith in God and Christ as savior of the world. It is a personal faith. Between God and myself. The way I believe Christ intended.

BTW, the Church is the people of God and not a building or set of religious rules.

[Bamf Bunny]

I was surprised and pleased by Kurt's devotion to Gabriel in X2. I've always been fond of Gabriel, if you can use the word "fond" about a being so fearsome that he has to precede all his announcements with "Fear not". Gabriel is a herald, and in the Christian tradition it's his trumpet call that raises the dead in the end days, so he's always been associated with communications. He's not the patron of linguists for some reason, but he is associated with telecommunications (I used to be a network specialist).

I would have picked St. Michael the Archangel for Kurt. Michael's often shown with a sword, contending against Satan and his minions and rescuing the souls of the faithful; fencing is one of his patronages. Then again, Gabriel is (in the Christian tradition) the angel of mercy but Michael is the angel of judgment - so perhaps that's the better call.

[Wolvertique]

Geez. I guess I, as a devoted Pagan, am in the minority of those posting in this thread. I deconverted from fundie Christianity in 1999, so I don't see Christianity as a blessing in general.

I see religion as the particular category of faith one follows (e.g. I have faith in Christ, therefore I'm a Christian), not the usual negative "it's following rules and not having faith" idea.

My mother's an atheist, and I have no problem with them in general. I have problems with the ones who ape fundamentalist Christianity, though, and insist anyone who has any religious belief whatsoever is clearly stupid and evil.

I don't mind people being Catholic. I mind people being jerks. I don't care what context it's in, be it religious or political or social, if you're a jerk then you're a jerk. And I don't blame jerkiness on religion or politics or so on. FYI.

[thylacine]

This continues to be a real cool discussion. I'm impressed with you guys. I go to other online communities like this one & discuss philosophical stuff, and they all end up fighting and putting each other down. I'm really impressed to see people who are above that here.

[rockstar]

well, A.) this is an OPINION thread, and B.) if we were to start fighting and saying mean things about other religions, the Moderators would take action. :respectnc

l agree with Northstar's Love. Whatever faith or religion is chosen, the person choosing it should keep it a personal deal.

[Lauren]

PLUS: this is Nightcrawler we're talking about. Nightcrawler is the bond that brings everyone together to discuss something like this with actual respect!

Honestly, my friends and I were talking about religion before school ended, and they all agreed that religion isn't a building or a specific group of people. Quoting my friend George, "The Church is BS, what does a building and shiny jewelry have to do with God?"

[Maelstrom]

Originally posted by Lauren
Honestly, my friends and I were talking about religion before school ended, and they all agreed that religion isn't a building or a specific group of people. Quoting my friend George, "The Church is BS, what does a building and shiny jewelry have to do with God?"

The idea behind adorning church buildings with all the shiny, glittery stuff is "You give your best to God". Kind of like how the Jews would bring in the best of their chickens, their lambs, their oxen, etc, for the ritual sacrifices. After all: if you're giving stuff you don't really care about, it isn't a sacrifice, is it?

The problem with all the glittery, shiny stuff is when we get too attached to it... and that goes for religious leaders. Priests/ministers, rabbis, holy men, shamans, and so forth: anyone is prone to temptation and corruption. To want to gain the shiny stuff for them, not for God. Or to demand more shiny stuff for God than the people can reasonably afford, just to make them "look better."

At one time the Catholic faith was a MAJOR governing institution, and (IHMO) sin is part of the job description for governments. They're as worldy as they come. That's why I believe (and our founding fathers did, too) that the two should NEVER mix, because one gets corrupted by the other. During the Middle Ages, we had all sorts of governmental taxings and purges from the Catholic Church. They were the same things everyone else was going, but with the added "shield" of being done in His holy name. Martin Luther saw the governmental excesses (sale of indulgences, the Inquisition, etc.) and disagreed with them so much that he nailed his thesis to the door, demanding change. The shiny stuff had gotten in the way.

It's not wealth that's the sin. Nor is it simply the pursuit of wealth that's bad. It's the pursuit of wealth above all else that causes so much trouble. The shiny stuff dwells hapilly, without trouble, in churches and mosques, in temples and synagogs, and even in the simplest of shrines. It is the best people can give, whether that's gold and jewels, or gifts of time and effort. It's the motive behind them that makes it a true gift or meaningless, repetitive ritual.

Like NL said, the Church referrs to the people: capital C for the congregation, small c for the building. The reason the Church is important (as opposed to the little building itself) is that humanity isn't generally designed to "go it alone". We need the presence and support of others. (This is why solitary confinement is a punishment in jails, and why we have "go sit in the corner" as a punishment for unruly children.)

Even monks and nuns, who have sealed themselves off to further their devotions, will congregate in groups. The true hermits, who go by themselves to be closer to God, are rare, but still acceptable. However, the hermits have (hopefully) made an enlightened choice, in the fullness of knowing the rest of the world, and they're the extreme minority. The rest of us just aren't designed to work that way. So we attend the Church by being around everyone else (whethet it's in attendence of a religious ceremony, a school, a party, or any other gathering). This is what makes Nightcrawler's situation doubly tragic. He may be part of the Church, but cannot express it by going to attend ceremonies in church with the rest of the congregation, because of his appearance. His solitude, his hermit status, has been kind of foisted upon him... and still he has the grace and love to deal with it instead of turning into a misanthropic nightmare.

[rockstar]

Maelstrom....... You. Rock.
Sooo many good points in there.

I know this thread is about Kurt, but are there any opinions about the Separation of Church and State?

[Lauren]

You can't have the church and state together for one reason, not everyone shares the same faith. Like, if a Rabbi came into my school and started to do a whole thing for the entire student body, I'd probably feel weird because I'm not Jewish and don't know about it. The problem is that most people who want religion in school and stuff is that they mostly want CHRISTIAN religion, and that's not fair to people who don't believe that, i know I'd be damned angry if my school suddenly made it mandatory to pray to Jesus or something. It's just not fair to everyone else.

and I agree, it's not right that Nightcrawler can't group together with other people except when he's wearing his image inducer! grrr...that's not fair!

[spinifex]

I'm Catholic, and while I didn't know of Nightcrawler's spirituality when I was converting/in RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults - a Catholic 101 type of class), I found X2 inspiring when I was going through a low point in my faith journey.

One criticism that I hear from Protestants about Catholicism is that, according to Protestant belief, faith alone in Jesus will guarantee your place in Heaven. Catholicism, however, teaches that you need both faith and works to get into Heaven. It's not enough to merely believe in Jesus, you also have to, to the best of your ability, emulate Jesus and his teachings. For instance, Jesus said to "feed the poor", so go out and feed the poor - donate to a charity, give food to a food bank, work at a soup kitchen, etc., e.g. show Jesus' love by example, not solely by prostelyzing. St. Francis of Assisi once said "Preach the Gospel wherever you go. If necessary, use words."

Some Protestants think that that is 'too much' and can be an area rife with abuse. I've gotten into a few discussions with street preachers with this, and when they bring up the 'faith alone' point, I mention that doing good deeds in God's name certainly doesn't hurt now, does it? They never have an answer for that.

I like this discussion - it should definitely be kept going! Thanks for starting it!

C-ko

[spinifex]

Originally posted by Lauren
really? Then I guess Kurt's disguise isn't working huh?

Thank you for making me spit out my Toblerone

C-ko