Nightcrawler/Religious & Spiritual Discussion

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Nightcrawler/Religious & Spiritual Discussion

Postby Maelstrom » Fri Jan 09, 2004 3:34 pm

Extremists cannot abide by anyone who doesn't cowtow to their own personal views. They especially hate people who refuse to hate. ;) Fred Rogers, God love the man, was a Minister, and he saw his program (Mr. Roger's Neighborhood) as an extension of that ministry. Notice that he never shoved Christianity down anyone's throats? In fact, I never knew he was a Minister until someone told me. He lived, and worked, by the ideal of "conversion by example", which works a helluvalot better than fire+brimstone "We teach ya to HAYTE fo' Jesus" stuff you get in Chick tracts.

And that is no doubt what pissed Phelps off so much.

1) Rogers was also a Minister.

2) Rogers was infinitely more successful at spreading his message, purely by his loving, soft touch.

3) Rogers' message, "love everyone, especially yourself", was the opposite of Phelp's.

4) Rogers was respected by virtually everyone, conservative to liberal. He was so listened to that people breathed a sigh of relief when he came ot of retirement in 2001 to help parents explain to their kids about the Twin Towers. Phelps... well... everyone would breathe a sigh of relief if he shut up. ;)

5) Rogers refused to rise to anyone's bait. He never lost his temper. For Phelps, this means Rogers was always in control of the situation, where Phelps no doubt sees the sinful world as a place he simply must dominate, and can't.

6) This is incredibly petty, but, you know, it might have something to do with it? Rogers and Phelps share the first name. :smirk

So, you've got a rival minister, with a rival, antithetical message to yours, who's more successful, more respected, more loved and listened to, has more power, leaving you, the paranoid hateful delusionary in the dirt....

What's not to hate? :naughty
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Postby thylacine » Fri Jan 09, 2004 4:24 pm

quote: "It's people like that that make me wonder about america sometimes. I mean, we let people like this do what they want and they're allowed to sue if someone tries to stop their campaigns! I think we need to be like Germany and have really tough laws against these people before I pay that SOB a little visit...muahaha."

There is hate everywhere in this sick world, honey. Look at the Middle East. The Muslim extremists hate Christians so much that during the Gulf War, our soldiers were not even allowed to have a Christmas tree at the place they camped out (so I have heard). Look at all the trouble all over the world, not just here in the good old US of A. There is racism in Europe too, and you read of riots in the newspapers.

Here is a story I heard on a talk show with regard to another extreme "minister." (I wish I could remember the name?) There is a Southern Fundamentalist group working towards the repeal of the 19th Amendment to the Constitution since it "hurts the family." Do y'all know what that Amendment is about??? That gives women the right to vote. Yeah. There are still people who want to do away with that too. If there are people trying to do that, then I call that a hate crime too.

It's just so very sad that there is so much ignorance in this troubled world. Human beings have no right to decide for themselves what God wants. People like that who are so uneducated need to just be quiet.
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Postby bluefooted » Fri Jan 09, 2004 5:14 pm

One of the things that strikes me most about these groups is how uneducated many of their members are.

I live in a relatively liberal college town in the Midwest. We often have religious groups come to campus to try to put 'the fear of God' into all of us sinners. You know, by wearing incredibly offensive signs and spewing hate :rolleyes Anyway, I was walking with one of my lab-mates to lunch and we passed a protester with a sign that read "If my dad was a faggot, I wouldn't be here". After we recovered from laughing, my friend, whose father is gay, turned to me and said "do you think we should give him a little lesson in biology?"

It was funny (in a horrible way), but then you notice all the really young children that these parents have dragged to the 'protest'. They're shouting out as much filth and hate as their parents. It really makes me want to weep just thinking about them and how they'll turn out :cry
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Postby Lauren » Fri Jan 09, 2004 5:28 pm

Yeah it really is! and I think Mr. Rogers was the kind of guy who was able to diffuse some of these horrible lessons the parents are teaching the kids, which might be another reason Phelps doesn't like him.

Man..Mr. Rogers was th best! He probably would be able to peak to those kids and help them stay away from how their parents think!
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Postby Warbird » Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:11 am

Unfortunately, it seems that children raised to hate always will. I've only met a handfull of people with racist parents who weren't themselves. This is how intolerance has lasted so long, in our relatively well educated socioty. No matter what good examples there is, say Mr. Rogers following the prior example, it only holds the childs attention for about a half hour a day. They hear their parents points of views constantly. Which is more natural to them? Obviously what they're around more.

Also, young children strive to please their parents. Even if they idolize Mr. Rogers they're going say what they're parents want to hear, who in turn give positive reinforcement to the behavior, which perpetuates it further. It becomes a type of enviromental conditioning. It's all around them and it's not untill the behavior is fully learned, that most have an opportunity to break free of it.

It's great to have peopel in the public who can set good examples, but it won't change our socioty. It helps, and I really wish that men like Mr. Rogers could change it all, but there's so much working against it.

I actually had no idea he was a minister either. Ok, this is way off topic by now, so for my next trick, I'm going to try and relate this back to the topic at hand (not that it's going to work well). Is NC the Mr. Rogers of comics? Once you put aside his religion, I think apart from being occasionaly randy, he is a good example of teaching through example. He's kind to most every one and usually upholds his morals... I know it's a stretch. I tried.
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Postby BamfChyck » Sat Jan 10, 2004 4:35 pm

Aside from the whole inability to get his feet in sneakers, I just can't picture Kurt in a cheesy cardigan.
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Postby Lauren » Sat Jan 10, 2004 9:07 pm

Aw, I could see him sitting in front of people, taking off his special made shoes, asking if you'd be his neighbor! That would be awesome!:LOL
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Postby Warbird » Sun Jan 11, 2004 5:49 am

He'd fit in better on Sesame Street. Little kids could learn German from him instead of Spanish. He could teach the grouch how to be understanding. Maybe take over in the super hero department. I mean, who cares about Super Grover. Not me.
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Postby thylacine » Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:46 pm

Hi Neighbor!

Speaking of religious people preaching on campus... In Boston years back they had the Moonies floating around Northeastern U. trying to rope in people. They follow you around trying to tell you about world peace and etc.
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Postby Lauren » Mon Jan 12, 2004 3:58 am

Yes, but do they try and force you into it? I wouldn't mind someone talking calmly with me about their religion, but those who try and force it down my throat anger me ever so much
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Postby Maelstrom » Mon Jan 12, 2004 5:45 am

Moonies were glassey-eyed cultists of the worst order. The "reverend" *snort* Sun Yun Moon would use such wonderful, ethical measures as sleep deprivation, food withholding, and various methods of mind control to brainwash them into mindless cultists, who'd work sixteen hours a day selling junk and roping in recuits! So, yes: if you gave them an inch, you *would* be forced into it.

And besides: anyone who claims to be "Christian", then claims to be the second coming of Christ, amasses an army of followers, and uses influence to create a financial empire isn't exactly kosher. ;)

He's been taken down many pegs by now, lost a lot of followers, power, and money, but he's slowly working behind the scenes. Just punch the word Moonie in any search engine to find out a lot of unsavory things about his cult.

Can you tell I have zip-po sympathy or patience with cults? ;)
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Postby Wolvertique » Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:54 pm

Washington Times still runs, doesn't it? It's a major publication with a lot of influence on conservative politicians, and it's a Moonie publication.
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Postby Lauren » Mon Jan 12, 2004 1:42 pm

Is that the same cult that tried to posion a town so that they could vote in one of their own to be mayor or something like that?
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Postby Maelstrom » Mon Jan 12, 2004 4:26 pm

No, that was the Majareshi Rajneeshee in 1983. If you enter the name in a search engine, you'll find all sorts of interesting (if scary) facts about that relatively short-lived cult, and how it self-destructed just as the police were homing in on them.


Originally posted by Wolvertique
Washington Times still runs, doesn't it? It's a major publication with a lot of influence on conservative politicians, and it's a Moonie publication.


I'd forgotten about that. I went and looked up some stuff after you mentioned it, and it seems familiar, so I must have heard it before somewhere....

But I don't think the Washington Times has the same amount of pull now as it has in the past. It's become a journalistic joke. It has been satirized for shoddy reporting so publicly, so many times, that it has lost a great deal of its former respect. What at one time made it popular with conservatives is that Moonie hated the communists with great fervor (after all, they would have done away with his cult if they gained power). Well, now the Godless commies aren't the big baddies: terrorism is. Which makes it harder for Mr. Moon to get away with such wonderful statements as this:

"Some people may oppose me, but they will go down the drain after a while and end up in hell.... I came with the teaching that the world and religions should become one.... Soon, the American president will have to visit me to seek advice."
Sun Myung Moon, December 10, 2000, East Garden, New York source: http://www.unification.net/news/2000/news20001210.html

Yeesh! :rolleyes For someone who claims to have "created" Christianity, you think he'd remember that he's way too close to Revelations with this little "uniting all the world and its religions under one banner" kind of statement....


Originally posted by BamfChyck
I don't know that Phelp's going to hell. I have a hard time thinking God's sending anyone there, because I think once we die and return to Him, He'll heal all the damaged, effed up stuff and make us whole.
And if anyone's damaged, it's Phelps.


BamfChyck, you're right. I had meant that remark to be more of a pointed reference to us creating our own hell, and placing ourselves firmly in it, but it wasn't in the best of taste. I apologize. :shame
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Postby Lauren » Mon Jan 12, 2004 5:38 pm

although it would be nice if religions combined to one thing that shared all of their beliefs together. Then we wouldn't have all of these problems!
"I am known as Valentinez Alkalinella Xifax Sicidabohertz Gombigobilla Blue Stradivari Talentrent Pierre Andri Charton-Haymoss Ivanovici Baldeus George Doitzel Kaiser III. Don't hesitate to call." -Vash the Stampede


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Postby Warbird » Mon Jan 12, 2004 9:29 pm

Having one religion sounds great in theory. There wouldn't be any trouble between religous groups, but you would still have problems. You'd have the more, conservative types who only want their life to revolve around religion, fighting people who only use religion as only part of their life. I'm sure that the athiests would have major problems in that socioty too. People will find a reason to fight in any situation. Man kind is petty in general and always wants to assert its power over other humans. Yes there are many exceptions to this, but even in small ways you can see it everyday. I honestly think that the problems between religions are SOMETIMES just an excuse to fight. People would just make another one up if differences in religion were taken away. Communism is an example. There was no religion but the Bulshevicks and menshevicks and the SR party faught for years. They were all factions of the same group even. They had the same ideals (Marxism) but each wanted to have absolute power. Unfortunatly human nature is more of a problem than religion. I realize this is a harsh way to look at the world, but it's a frequent trend in human history.
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Postby thylacine » Mon Jan 12, 2004 11:24 pm

I studied Communism briefly... The State tried to replace religion with love of Socialism and the Soviet State and did everything they could to discourage religion... But it didn't work out.

People seem to be "hardwired" for the spiritual. All societies have some sort of religion, even the most primitive societies.
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Postby Lauren » Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:49 am

Darn...*sigh* It would have been nice though...

Didn't stalin make whole museums to try and make people see that religions were all fake though?
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Postby thylacine » Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:29 pm

The Soviet State was famous for its propaganda & one sided view of issues...

I don't think that religions are fake, just a lot of the people who run them... ! Phony TV evangelists make all Christians look like idiots. I know people who do terrible things then go to church to be seen as going to church. I believe in God. But people s-ck!!!
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Postby Warbird » Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:46 pm

This is all true about Communists trying and ultimately failing to eliminate religion, but it wasn't exactly my point. The point was even though they didn't even have religion to fight over, they faught over their own ideals. The Bulsheviks, Mensheviks, and SRs were all communist. None of them had religion and they all had the same ideals. They all followed the concept of Marxism but still faught alot. People were fighting over nothing pretty much. They all had the same idea!!! My thaught is that even if there was one religion, people would still fight and have terrorism. It's human nature.

I do agree that alot of the problem with religion is people preach and go to church, but don't truely practice their own faith. They want to look and feel superior through their religion, when you're actually supposed to be humbled by it. It's a bit sickening how people completly distort somthing that is meant to be good.
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Postby Lauren » Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:49 am

It almost makes me want to laugh sometimes, especially when someone acts high and mighty for going to church, and then I point out that in the Bible, God says it's better to do it in private and alone and NOT to brag about it.
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Postby thylacine » Wed Jan 14, 2004 4:51 pm

You are quite right, Warbird. And it's so sad that human nature is so weak.

I try to be a good person and improve myself each day. When I see how badly other people behave it makes me so very sad. And you cannot give them advice that would be helpful since they resent it. You see people messing up their lives with drugs & unsafe sex & alcohol & whatever they are doing, and you try to gently turn them around and they get mad at you for telling them & etc. Same thing with war, I guess. You tell people to give peace a chance and they say you don't understand & etc. and just go on fighting. Humanity stinks!!! :X
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Postby Maelstrom » Wed Jan 14, 2004 4:58 pm

Originally posted by Lauren
It almost makes me want to laugh sometimes, especially when someone acts high and mighty for going to church, and then I point out that in the Bible, God says it's better to do it in private and alone and NOT to brag about it.


The idea behind the importance of going to church is that it's a communal experience. It isn't so much that you can't worship in private, or that it somehow does't count, but by joining up with people you renew your bonds. That's the reason they have "fellowship coffee" afterwards. It's not just to welcome and get to know newcomers, but to socialize and renew bonds with the rest of the parishoners.

Originally posted by Warbird
This is all true about Communists trying and ultimately failing to eliminate religion, but it wasn't exactly my point. The point was even though they didn't even have religion to fight over, they faught over their own ideals. The Bolsheviks, Mensheviks, and SRs were all communist. None of them had religion and they all had the same ideals. They all followed the concept of Marxism but still faught alot. People were fighting over nothing pretty much. They all had the same idea!!! My thaught is that even if there was one religion, people would still fight and have terrorism. It's human nature.


Sadly true. :( Humans are a diverse bunch of people, with differing opinions. Even zealots of the same cult/political party/subculture will have different ways they express their fanaticism. And if someone wants to hate and feel superior, they'll find a way to do it.

Ini the 60s, there was a famous experiment done in a grade school classroom (I think it was 2nd grade). The teacher had a theory that the reason minorities (specifically African Americans, at this time) seemed to do so poorly in school wasn't from "mental deficiency", but from social pressures. So she told the (all white) class that that day, blue eyed people were "better" than brown-eyed people. The blue-eyed kids even got to put little paper collars around the brown-eyed ones. Instantly, the brown-eyed kids, with their new social stigma, became withdrawn, unhappy, and uninterested in their studies, despite the fact that they had been A students the day before. The blue-eyed ones, with their newfound power, started tormenting them, calling them brown-eyed, constantly reminding them of their inferior status. The entire dynamics of the class changed wildly in just one day.

Recently, there was a reunion of the "kids" of that class (now all grown up and in their 40s) and the teacher. No, their was no bitterness. Everyone was happy to see each other. But as adults, they could look back at it and express eloquently what they felt, something kids just can't do. The ones on the "superior" side said that they had a sense of power and invulnerability. Like they could do whatever they wanted to the "inferior" ones, without fear of reprisal, that it was okay because they were better, and the teacher (the authority) said so.

And there you have elitism, racism, and hate in a nutshell. It feels good to have someone under you. It gives a feeling of power to "realize" you are better. And in a community, you reinforce this belief, give it authority, making it "all right" to feel this way. Zealots, with their black-or-white mindset, fall into this trap along with other extremists. They're 100%, absolutely, positively right. Everyone else in the world is wrong. They are the elite, the chosen, the vanguard. Everyone else who doesn't believe their way is inferior, and by association has less power, less rights, less everything.

Back to communism as an example, Stalin took everything one step further by manufacturing enemies. It wasn't enough to be superior, and have the right, nay, the responsibility to take charge. He had to have enemies. He had to define his nature by showing what he was not, and to do that, he had to have enemies. Unsatisfied with a vague groop of inferiors, he had to specifically identify a group of enemies within that inferior set, so he could define his own nature against them. A rampaging, paranoid-delusionary ego.

This is so often why extreme parties and cults self destruct. When there's no room for dissent, and dissent is basic human nature, you're going to have schizms. That's what happened with communism in the early part of the 20th century. The moderate Mensheviks, who found no reason to be violent, were bulldozed by the violent Bolshevicks. Why? Because the Bolsheviks saw the Mensheviks as traitors, along with the rest of the inferiors. In the schizm, all the really forceful, violent people went to one side, and the moderates stayed on the other. Regrettably, in this case, the moderates lost.....

I do agree that alot of the problem with religion is people preach and go to church, but don't truely practice their own faith. They want to look and feel superior through their religion, when you're actually supposed to be humbled by it. It's a bit sickening how people completly distort somthing that is meant to be good.


I couldn't agree more. :( Far too often, churches tend to think of themself as a country club for the "saved". You go to your place of worship, you follow the holy texts, you perform the rituals, and that makes you superior to all those sinful heathens that don't. But in each and every religion I've seen, a church isn't a club for the saved: it's a refuge for those who need saving. It's a place you go to improve your imperfections, not congratulate each other for piety. And to improve, you have to realize your own faults, your own humanity. It requires humility. One of the original definitions of sin in the Catholic (both Roman and Orthodox) Church is "missing the mark". Not WRONG behavior, not EVIL behavior, not STUFF THAT WILL SEND YOU TO HELL behavior: just imperfections. In this vein, when mankind is called a "race of sinners", it doesn't mean a bunch of evil bastards. It just means nobody is perfect.
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Postby Ult_Sm86 » Wed Jan 14, 2004 8:02 pm

Mael most of what you said there about club church applies (sorry catholics) more to the catholics. In my american baptist church you say "there's god and jesus the rest isn't up for me to decide" and that's it your a mamber of the church your baptised and your note expected to beleive adam and eve were the first and that water became whine. your supposed to reconize a guy named Jesus who will come back and that's it. That's what a real church is. Then you spread the message (if you see fit) and you welcome and not shake hands for every person taht isn't going to hell cuz I fully beleive that Hell has a large vacancy since that guy went on the cross. Jesus accepted all of our "wrongs" and now we're in. Tah-dah. (well some speculate that you have to beleive in him too and I say sure why not, but I still don't think you go to hell)
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Nightcrawler/Religious & Spiritual Discussion

Postby Warbird » Thu Jan 15, 2004 12:09 am

hmmm It's great that your church is like that... but you just embodied the "it's a Catholic problem" mentality that really disturbs me. I've had dozens of people from just as many religions, telling ME what MY church is like. Public perseption is far from the truth in many cases and this is one of them. Catholics are by no means top of the ladder or the only ones who are going to be saved. That also doesn't mean that we're always wrong and any problem with religion today is manifested in our church. I know lots of people who go to churches that are like cliques that aren't Catholic. Also, I dated a guy who went to a baptist church and I attended services with him on occasion. Every time he'd end up telling someone that I was "Really a Catholic" and I'd end up haveing a dozen people tell me that if I didn't convert I'd be damned because "Catholics aren't really Christian". They all looked down their nose at me or tried to "save" me. People of all faiths think that they're supperior to others. The country club behavior is universal.
"Sweet crackers I'm blind!!!!" - Stormy
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