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Nightcrawler/Religious & Spiritual Discussion

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:25 am
by Nightmare
P.S. Hey Nightmare, that is cool that you had such diverse spiritual experience in life.
Thanks... I used to run an old fashion dial up bbs on the WWIV network. On it I hosted a forum called "A Matter Of Faith". I didn't discriminate on any faiths there, though I was openly posting from the Pagan point of view. My main rule was that everyone stay polite.

The first Christian I ever really respected posted there, she called herself Pooh Lady. =)

We'd also get the fundy xtian types, but they weren't the only ones who'd rattle their swords. The Asatru (Norse Pagans) would get nasty too. If I was being called unfair by extremists on both sides, I figured I was doing things just about right.

Nightcrawler/Religious & Spiritual Discussion

Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 7:21 pm
by thylacine
I know they took Terri off life support to end her suffering... BUT !!! What if... and this could possibly happen in the future... What if they start euthanizing handicapped people to "end their suffering???" This really, truly frightens me. What if this happens when I am elderly??? What if society gets colder and meaner than it already is now and starts euthanizing the handicapped, the elderly, the retarded, the mentally ill, and then who knows... the poor, the homeless... ? I dunno. It just worries me when the media discusses euthanasia.

Nightcrawler/Religious & Spiritual Discussion

Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 10:17 pm
by Bamfette
covered this a page or so back... Terri only had the decision made for her because she was absolutely unable to communicate because she was essentially brain dead. the debate wasn't over wether she should be allowed to die, people in similar states have their plugs pulled every day in North America and Europe, that's nothing new. It was over who got to make that decision, her husband (who said it was her wish to die in such circumstances) or her parents. if a person is handicapped or old, so long as they have some mental capabilities, they are able to vocalize if they want to die or not, and their decision trumps all others. they need not do it with words, but with their eyes or any other means they have at their disposal to communicate. this is what Terri lacked, so the decision fell to her husband. no one would ever kill someone who did not want to die and had the ability to say so. and if they did, like the 'angel of death' nurses, they would be rightfully charged with murder.

The only way i could see a situation like you mention arising is if our society somehow reached a point where there was a societal 'cleansing' going on. where, nevermind race, the handicapped and mentally disturbed are considered for whatever reason unworthy to live or reproduce. Like Hitler did. And there are many problems with society, but the only people who hold those kinds of views right now are fringe extremists. It would take a lot for that kind of thinking to take hold to tthe point that it became normal, especially after WWII, and how vehemently opposed the president was to pulling Terri's plug.

aaaaaaaaaanyway... The topic i am currently interested in is the debate over 'Intelligent Design' and evolution being taught in schools... first off, it's blatantly obvious it's only the creationists trying to gloss over the religious aspects of their argument. as such, it violates the seperation of church and state, imo. mention that there is a debate, fine, whatever, but I don't think much time should be devoted to it. the only thing that should go into science textbooks and cirriculum is SCIENCE. Facts with evidence to back them up. and if Evolution is 'just a theory' (mangling the understanding of 'theory' in a scientific sense. GRAVITY is 'just' a theory.) then ID is nothing more than a hypothosis. It's not been tested, it's not been proven in the slightest. get some scientists to test this hypothosis of 'it's real complex, so it must be created by something else' and come back with at least a BIT of evidence, THEN maybe they can challenge evolution.

and a tangent.... also... and i hate to offend, but i don't see how there could BE a debate.... ok. ID, it's vague enough that if you believe in it, as in you believe evolution was guided by a higher force, i can accept that. i don't believe it, but I'm ok with and can understand others believing it. just don't try and force it in the public schools till you get some solid proof.

but straight up creationism... that everything on the planet was created *as is* by god. i don't get how people can still believe it. again, i don't mean to offend, but it just seems so... strange to me. I knew someone in high school/college that did, they tried to convince me that dinosaur fossils were planted by Satan. I just kinda smiled and nodded... I had no other comeback, really, becuase I was just dumbstruck by this assertion. I had not really entertained the 'debate' before then, so had never really encountered anyone talking to me like that before.

but evolution via natural selection is so well proven and documented.... in 150 years, it hasn't been disproven and just keeps getting more and more evidence to SUPPORT it, not the other way around. especially now that they are ding DNA testing on... well, pretty much everything, to see how far back they diverged from other related species. or groups of the same species, most notably our own, to track ancient migration patterns. and i mean, just LOOK at any animal on the planet, most specifically, mammals and birds, how can you tell me there is no common ancestor there? I just don't get it, it's plain as day to me. for instance, EVERY mammal on the face of the earth has or demonstratably had at some time in their evolutionary past 4 limbs with 5 digits on each. yes, even horses and whales/dolphins. If every species on the planet was 'designed' or 'created' why would they all have that? why aren't there vertibrate creatures running around with 6 or 8 legs? and why do whales and snakes have pelvises and leg bones? in short, why so little variation within types of animals?

Just... places like the 'Creation Museum' (and the website that sponsors it, Answers in Genesis) show an astounding lack of understanding for the underlying principles. I am not sure wether to attribute that to actively trying to come up with ANY explanation that fits, no matter how ludicrous, or that they genuinely believe it...

I do realize that if evolution were accepted as true, then the literal reading of Genesis would have to be considered not true, and I do understand that people may not want to let that go. But I also know many Christians accept Genesis as not being the *literal* description of the origin of man (I say man and not life because evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life or the origin of the planet. merely how life evolved to more complex organisms from simple ones.) do i don't see the huge deal.

is there anyone here who does not believe in evolution? if so do you believe in a young (the earth is no more than 10,000 years old) or old earth (billions of years old)? if young earth.... why? i can understand believing old earth creationism to an extent. but new earth, it just seems as though you're willingly slapping on blinders, ignoring evidence all around. like believing the world is flat. that's just the way i see it. I can't wrap my mind around it, can't understand it, is all. I am not really trying to convert you to my way of thinking, just trying to understand yours.

and though as menioned, not trying ot 'convert' anyone, but if anyone has any questions of evolution, I will do my best to explain whatever you want, be it common ancestors or punctuated equilibrium.

Nightcrawler/Religious & Spiritual Discussion

Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 6:38 am
by taekwondodo
Would it be safe to assume that you're a fan of the late, great Stephen Jay Gould? Your remark on the universality of 4 limbs and five digits brings to mind the phenomenon of the panda's thumb.....

Nightcrawler/Religious & Spiritual Discussion

Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 7:50 am
by Bamfette
fan of evolutionary theory in general, but Stephen Jay Gould would be counted among evolutionists i have read, yes...

and yeah, the pandas thumb is a bit odd.. it's still the same bones as other creatures, but a wrist bone has been modified to stick out like another digit...

as an aside, when fish were first evolving to walk on land, there were several transitional species, that had fins modified into rudimentary feet, and the number of digits started out much higher than that. i find it interesting that eventually 5 ended up being the magic number.

I also wonder if, a few million years from now, descendents of something like the mud skipper may evolve more/less toes/limbs or also arrive at 5. to my knowledge, the mudskipper's fins do not posess bones, they are merely highly muscular, but instead of having the rear fins forming 2 limbs, they have fused into one, sothat's different already. 3 limbs. there is no guarantee they will evolve further, they seem to fill their little niche nicely, but assuming they did.

mudskipper: ... goro1.html
and yes it's in japanese, but the pictures were the best ones, and the images speak for themselves. mudskippers are fish that are able to crawl on land and even climb trees. they have modified gills which store water, sort of like a scuba tank would store air for us. but besides that, they are also able to breathe air through a membrane in the back of their mouths, and also through their skin.

and sorry if i got a bit ranty.... just something that really confuses me...

oh. and...


Nightcrawler/Religious & Spiritual Discussion

Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 2:09 pm
by Saint Kurt
This thread is very long and very winding and very... done.

It is not that religion and spirituality cannot be discussed here - in fact, I welcome the creation of a new topic by anyone who wishes to discuss the subject. I look forward to reading and joining in.

This religion topic thread however, is being closed.

As the subject has turned towards convergent evolution (always a fascinating topic to me as a vet student) Jill has started this cryptozoology topic that's really cool. (And that I totally regret no posting in yet, but I've been kind of busy under Nightscrawler's "hood" lately.)


Thank you.