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Post by Bamfette »

I am getting sick and tired of this stupid Christian superiority complex held by some (i repeat SOME...) super-fundie Christians.

and yes, I know most Christians are far more accepting and rational than this. It's the few zealots that gives the majority a bad name, I realize that.

Last week, FOX News host Bill O'Reilly declared "even Jewish people like Christmas" while discussing a complaint by the Committee to Save Merry Christmas that there is "intentional and deliberate exclusion of 'Merry Christmas' in the Federated Department Stores advertising and decorations."

However, when a Jewish caller to the December 3 Radio Factor told O'Reilly he objected to "Christmas going into schools," O'Reilly informed him:

O'REILLY: All right. Well, what I'm tellin' you, [caller], is I think you're takin' it too seriously. You have a predominantly Christian nation. You have a federal holiday based on the philosopher Jesus. And you don't wanna hear about it? Come on, [caller] -- if you are really offended, you gotta go to Israel then. I mean because we live in a country founded on Judeo -- and that's your guys' -- Christian, that's my guys' philosophy. But overwhelmingly, America is Christian. And the holiday is a federal holiday honoring the philosopher Jesus. So, you don't wanna hear about it? Impossible.
Forgetting for a second here that Christmas isn't even an AMERICAN holiday to begin with...

Nevermind we live in a multi-cultural society, Christmas itself is not particularly Christian, anyway. It's borrowing the tree from the Celts, and Santa *cough*Odin*cough* from the Norse, among other little things. The Christians appropriated already existing PAGAN holidays to spread the gospel, basically. (tho I think in this case, they really should have put the resurrection on Yule/Winter Solstice - it would fit better. In pagan tradition, Yule, the Winter Solstice, whatever, is meant to represent the RESURRECTION of various (primarily sun) gods, because the days begin to get longer again. While Easter is meant to represent fertility, which would really represent a virgin birth a bit better, imho.) anyway... If they want to keep it a 'Christian holiday' they should get REALLY serious about it, and dump the pagan trappings. And that means gifts, too. That's primarily Norse. Jul (which lasts 12 nights - hence 12 days of Christmas) in Norse tradition is supposed to represent (among other things such as the resurrection of Baldur) the height of the Wild Hunt. Children would fill boots with sugar and straw for Odin's 8 legged (hence, 8 tiny reindeer later) horse Sleipnir. As a reward for their kindness, Odin would leave the boots filled with presents. In celtic tradition, presents, along with decorations to represent astrological bodies, such as the stars, sun and moon, which in turn represented the gods, were tied to Yule trees as offerings to the gods. So you have the origins of the Christmas stocking and gifts under the tree kind of blurring together. Christmas Holly was tied above doors in Celtic tradition as a sign of goodwill. It is said that it was meant to offer shelter from the cold to the faery folk.

But, since that would be a rather extreme measure, maybe it would be better for them to simply acknowledge that their beliefs aren't so important that they should be FORCED on the rest of the populace. ;)
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Post by Crawler »

I mean because we live in a country founded on Judeo...Christian...philosophy.
We live in a country founded on a model from a civilization that was polytheistic and notoriously homosexual-friendly. So f*ck off, Bill O'Reilly.
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Post by Bamfette »

yeah, and Jefferson was widely believed to be a Deist (believed the universe was likely created by a higher power, but do not subscribe to a specific religion, and many believe that power does not involve itself in the fate of mankind) and many of the other founding fathers were equally non-Christian, his argument is just stupid. And assuming they WERE the most devout Christians in the world, that would not change the fact that society changes over time, and people just have to accept that.
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Post by NachtcGleiskette »

Well...I'm gonna counterpoint a bit here....

First off, he said that this country was founded on Judeo-Christian philosophy, which is both Judaism AND Christianity. These are the two predominant religions in this country with Christianity coming ahead of Judaism. This country is predominantly Christian, and Christmas is one of our biggest holidays, along with Easter. It IS impossible to ignore Christmas for those who do not celebrate. Of late, Christmas has become more than a Christian holiday. It's become a societal holiday. And it's the biggest time of the year for retail stores. So it is expected that Christmas would be seen around. And I really don't see Hannukah (or even Kwanza to an extent) being left out in decorating in public places OR in schools. When I was a child we sang Christmas carols in school as well as Hannukah songs. I am a firm believer of separation of church and state, but making a paper tree, or singing a song is hardly something to get fussy about.

I live in NY, which may cloud my vision of how it is in the rest of the country. All I can say is that Christmas is the last thing I hold dear from my Catholic heritage, and it's the only thing I love. I really dislike when it is put under fire. Just from a religious stand point, as a nation, we allow other religions to exist in this country, and we not only allow them to practise and celebrate their holidays, we teach about them in schools (at least, we do here). I don't see why Christmas should be so "intolerable".



Little PS here: There is no way anyone who has ever been to NYC at Christmas time could ever have an objection to it.....

Another PS: I still hate Bill O'Rielly...
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Post by Bamfette »

I think you're reading more into this than there is. no one is saying Christmas should be or is intolerable. no one is saying no one should celebrate Christmas. they're just saying that if it is public, maybe it should be inclusive to all, and not specifically Christian. If they sing christmas carols in a school, let it be 'Frosty the Snowman' rather than 'Away in a Manger' draw pictures of trees, or Santa or reindeers, fine, since they've all but lost any of their original meaning. but nativity scenes may be questionable for a public school ( now if the teacher just said 'draw a christmas picture' and a kid drew a nativity scene of his own choosing, that's fine. but i am saying no teacher should say 'you have to draw baby Jesus in a manger' not that i think a kid could pull off a nativity scene, anyway).

I'm atheist and i celebrate the holidays. I don't celebrate a religious aspect of it, but I do get togehter with my family exchange gifts and all that. it's tradition. and if someone says 'merry Christmas to me, i will take it in the spirit it was meant, even tho i don't celebrate Christmas, exactly. I don't have a problem with Christmas being there. the people getting upset here are Christians because others do not acknowledge Christmas above all the other holidays that are held at the same time. generally giving the impression that they feel they should be given special treatment during this time. I'm sorry, but getting upset that people say 'Happy Holidays' rather than 'Merry Christmas' is stupid, especially considering how secularized the holiday has become. the Jewish caller was merely saying that the *Christian aspect* of the holidays sometimes felt like it was being forced down his throat. when someone says 'happy holidays' it is not offensive, it's merely saying ' i dunno if you celebrate Christmas, Hanukkah, Yule, Kwanzaa or nothing at all, but whatever it is, have a good one' it's not denying Christmas.
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Post by HoodedMan »

Unfortunately, I disagree with a bit that's said here. I indeed have read that Christian was initially a pagan holiday and isn't Christ's birth in any case (wrong season; there would be no sheperds) and he was born in 2 BCE (clerical error).

However, I think that there's no particular problem with Christmas being a big thing for America. I rather agree with O'Reilly that it's going to be impossible not to hear about it and the caller took it a bit too seriously. It's simply a big thing for many people. Do Christians complain when the Jews observe Hanukkah? The only difference is that less people are celebrating it so it's not as big.

Restricting it in schools would be a gross suppression of civil liberties. For those who are offended: If it's being forced down your throat, you have all rights to complain. But I personally agree with Bamfette in that it can be just as merry a season, no matter what you worship.
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Post by Tatu »

Originally posted by HoodedMan
Do Christians complain when the Jews observe Hanukkah? The only difference is that less people are celebrating it so it's not as big.
when you're the #1 big dog of course you're not gonna complain about the little pup that claims #2.

Like Jill, i (barely) celebrate the holidays. I don't celebrate a religious aspect of it.. we're not a religious family.. its about gifts and family and all that nonsense i dont really wanna deal with :p but call it what you want as long as im not forced to think the same way and celebrate Jesus because its a "christian holiday and jesus is teh best!" i dont really care.

hell lets just call it "National Shopping Month"

"Merry retail!" works and doesnt offend anyone :toothy

oh and, Bill O'Reilly is an ass. 'nuff said.
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Post by CurlyyHairGirl »

My town stopped celebrating Christmas in public schools about five years ago because of many complaints from parents and students who felt left out by it all. Sure some teachers decorate the classrooms, but not for any one holiday.
Heh, I'm just waiting for the choir teacher to get in trouble, all the choir sings is about christmas and Jesus, no frosty, or Hanukka songs here. There have been complaints, but nothing has been done yet.
Christmas is a huge time for retail, indeed, but even myself (Roman Catholic/christian) find it alot easier to just ignore any sign of the Holidays in school.

IMO, the only good thing about this season are the claymation movies and hittin' my sister over the head with fruitcake. Never really liked the holiday season anyway.

Religion is for private schools people. Religion is not a curriculum or standard in public school, save the holidays for home.
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Post by NachtcGleiskette »

When bringing up the choir, (and i suspect your speaking of High school choir, yes?) Christian music is typically chosen for it because of its beauty and simplicity for developing voices...there isn't much classical music with words (in english) that isnt in some way secular....or more specifically christian/hymnal....

And there's no reason theology can't be taught..its when personal beliefs are brought in that it comes under question....
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Post by HoodedMan »

Speaking as a member of a choir, a lot of choirs do try to make their music diverse. In our holiday concert this year we were not able to purchase a Hanukkah song in time but we did get some lovely Japanese proverbs and a few Spanish songs that had nothing in particular to do with Christmas.

I only like Christmas songs because as NachtcGleiskette says, hymns are fun, especially dark, depressing ones with minor keys and occasionally really light ones with catchy tunes. But maybe the minor key thing is just me. :D
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Post by Bamfette »

beautiful yes, but there are appropriate places and times for religious songs, irregardless of their beauty. like i said, no one is tying to ban mention of Christmas altogehter, just make the public face inclusive to all, instead of exclusive to Christians. when i was in school, i was always made to sing religious songs, and even then (talking elementary school here, never did the choir thing in jr high onward, i suck at singing) it just felt wrong. why should i, or a (or a kid whose parents are trying to rase them as) Buddhist or Muslim or Pagan or Jew or who knows what else be made to sing 'away in a manger' 'come all ye faithful' 'hark the herald angels sing' or some other song which goes completely against their beliefs? and to some kids, i am sure it is extremely confusing. in a church, or in a family gathering or even carollers on the street just doing it for fun, hey, sing whatever you want. but public schools, i have an issue with. tho that wasn't even an issue in the article i quoted...

I just don't understand how people can't look at this from another perspective. honestly, how would you feel, as a Christian or otherwise, if 'Happy Hanukkah' was plastered all over the place, and nothing else?

tell me ONE good reason why Christianity should get preferential treatment? why is it that it's not good enough to be included, you have to be included above all others? just because it has always been that way does not necessarily make it right or fair, especially with the population of non-Christians growing all the time. no one group of non-Christians can compare in number, but even so.

again, merely saying 'Happy Holidays' instead of 'Merry Christmas' does NOT diminish the holiday in any way!
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Post by HoodedMan »

Originally posted by Bamfette
why should i, or a (or a kid whose parents are trying to rase them as) Buddhist or Muslim or Pagan or Jew or who knows what else be made to sing 'away in a manger' 'come all ye faithful' 'hark the herald angels sing' or some other song which goes completely against their beliefs?
Well, it all depends on where you go to. My choir leader, though Christian, has stated officially that any choir member who does not wish to sing any song (whether it's against his beliefs or not) will not have to sing it as long as she's in charge.
Originally posted by Bamfette
tell me ONE good reason why Christianity should get preferential treatment? why is it that it's not good enough to be included, you have to be included above all others?
Do they get preferential treatment? Or an another note, if Jews were the majority, would Christians think they were getting preferential treatment? It's easier to notice what a majority of people do as opposed to what a minority does.

Also, as I mention later, the USA was founded on Christian ideals which still remain; this is not necessarily fair to all but it's true. I'm not disagreeing with your points because they're wrong; I simply don't think that religious minorities are as oppressed as you seem to think they are.
Originally posted by Bamf Bunny
Public schools should be even more sensitive about the issue. Schools, let's face it, have authority over kids - and our Constitution specifies the separation of church and state.
[...]
There is a difference between the government forbidding you to practice your beliefs, and the government saying that no one belief will be pushed.
I quite agree; even though the government was based on Christian ideals it needs to seperate church and state more, especially when it constrains civil liberties. I have said this quite often.

However, this does not mean it needs to try to fit as many different points of view in as it can. It simply means it can't push a belief as you say.

I believe that Christmas is a big thing simply because it is celebrated by a lot of people. The government may push it a bit and this should be discouraged whenever possible, but to me this seems to be few and far between.
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Post by Crawler »

It was NOT based on Christian ideals. Once again, the people we hold as the founding fathers of our country were NOT necessarily Christian and they modeled the country off of Greek society, not anything in the Bible.

Just because they said that murder is wrong does not make it Christian, just for an example.

And the entire idea was that everyone would be included and welcomed, which while that IS something Jesus believed in, is NOT a Christian belief...or at least not one that is often demonstrated...as this argument shows.

And the whole argument is, basically, that people are taking the religion out of Christmas...and this is essentially true. The thing is that the people raising an uproar are not just trying to get the religious meanings more attention, they're trying to press them in public places.

I have NO PROBLEM with "Merry Christmas" being replaced with "Happy Holidays" and think that anyone that has a problem with being INCLUDED instead of THE FOCUS needs to take a chill pill and go outside, because clearly their ego is suffocating them.

If you want to bitch about Christmas being separated from its roots, you need to go WAAAAAAAY back in time and bitch the newly-Christian European pagans for installing all the trappings that we associate with it.

No tree, no Santa, no gifts, no feast. Those aren't Christian.
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Post by Maelstrom »

Weren't a lot of our Founding Fathers Masons? I seem to remember a picture of George W. with his Mason's apron and the symbol nearby. The Masons and Eastern Stars are a Christian sect, but not the kind the Fundies want to hear about. After all, they did borrow a lot from classical Greek ideals, laws, and so on....

I think that that Christmas was "created" in the 4th century as a way for Christianity to counter the progressively growing Cult of Mithras. It seemed that Christianity valued fasting, prayer, and soul-cleansing austerity so much that the "common pagans" who they were trying to convert got tired of the "lack of fun" factor, and Mithras had so many similarities to Christian values that it was a real threat in popularity. And Mithras had parties. So the church elders decided to make a celebration on December 25th specifically to counter the great Feast of Mithras (held on the same day). They saved the rebirth aspect of God for Easter, which, religiously speaking, really is supposed to be more important to Christianity than the Nativity.

If Mithras' cult hadn't gained the "upper hand" in the religious PR war (thanks to the Roman Legions bringing it back with them from their travels), the church elders of the time would probably never have bothered recognizing Christ's birth. They were far, far more concerned with His adult ministry, His death, and His resurrection. Pretty much everything written about His childhood was meant to point to His status as Savior, by outlining all the prophecies He fulfilled on the way up.

Also, according to the Orthodox tradition, the original Saint Nicholas was a Bishop of Myra in the 3rd century. He was born wealthy, his parents died while he was young, and he gave away all his posessions to the poor. There's all sorts of stuff on him out there on the web. Here's what I cut+pasted from one site, which gives a quick explanation of the "Christmas Stockings" origin, as well as some other decorative traditions:

One story tells of a poor man with three daughters. In those days a young woman's father had to offer prospective husbands something of value—a dowry. The larger the dowry, the better the chance that a young woman would find a good husband. Without a dowry, a woman was unlikely to marry. This poor man's daughters, without dowries, were therefore destined to be sold into slavery. Mysteriously, on three different occasions, a bag of gold appeared in their home-providing the needed dowries. The bags of gold, tossed through an open window, are said to have landed in stockings or shoes left before the fire to dry. This led to the custom of children hanging stockings or putting out shoes, eagerly awaiting gifts from Saint Nicholas. Sometimes the story is told with gold balls instead of bags of gold. That is why three gold balls, sometimes represented as oranges, are one of the symbols for St. Nicholas. And so St. Nicholas is a gift-giver.

It can be really interesting to trace the icon of Santa Clause back to its hundreds of different roots, only a few of which are Christian. Maybe I'll find some good links and post them here (assuming I find the time ;) ).



All that said... Man, I don't know where to go on this.

America is torn between celebrating Christmas as a religious holiday and a secular one. It's been this way, one way or another, ever since the 1820s. The secular influence has been really important to our nation's economic bottom line, so it's gained popular support in the establishment the most likely to benefit from it: retailers. Because of this, Christmas seems to start some time about 1:30am on November 1st. :yuck

But it's not just the omnipresent retail imagery that's the problem here. I mean, no one can really argue that the retailers have gone overboard. Starting into "Jingle Bells" and putting up Currier and Ives inspired Christmas tableaus before Halloween is over is so nakedly an attempt to sell stuff that it's hard to defend. But when you get into celebrating the holiday itself, it's a virtual minefield. :urg

* If you go to church, put up a nativity, and emphasize the religious aspect, you're a right wing zealot who shoves your religion down someone's throat.

* If celebrate it as a secular holiday of the family, you're a rampant materialist who steals from Mother Earth, and should be ashamed of what Christmas is turning into, thanks to greedy capitalists like you.

* If you're not Christian and complain about its omnipresence, you're being overly sensitive and using your minority status to ruin the Holiday Season for everyone.

* If you don't celebrate it at all, you're some Scrooge-like bitter nutball that kicks puppies and snarls an anyone who smiles. Or, worse, you're a nasty-ol communist who's trying to rescind Christmas and destroy the joy of children everywhere.

It's like there's no middle ground on this issue. Christmas has become as polarized as such hot-button topics as abortion or politics. No matter how you celebrate, or don't celebrate, you're going to piss someone off and be seen as a monster.

I have to go along with Bunny on the aspect of who to give secular greetings, and who to give religious ones. Unless you're in an obviously religious business (i.e. the Salvation Army or St. Vladimir's Press), or a business so small that you personally know every customer like they were family, it's much more professional to wish someone joy, peace, and happiness rather than "Rejoice, for He is born". Religion is a very intimate thing, and shouldn't be explicit in a formal business relationship.

The school one is so tricky, for one reason: most of the really cool Choral works have a religious base. They were written for the great choirs of Europe, and it can be hard to find complex, gorgeous stuff that is purely secular. It's easy to not put up a nativity scene in a public school, and easy to concentrate on the Santa Clause/ Season's Greetings stuff for decorations. But when it comes to singing, things get convoluted.

When I was in High school, we did religious songs just because they were the only classic songs of that kind. There was a whole slew of new stuff that's secular, and a few classics or madrigals were love songs instead of Catholic psalms, but you couldn't fill an entire repetoire with them and not sound like muzak. (This was the large concert choir, by the way: Jazz choir was a different story entirely.) I don't know what has been written in the past 20 years, so maybe things are different now, but still, despite my extreme defense of church/state separation, I'm inclined to give the music department a break on this. It's... well... just the reality of classical music that the original choirs were for churches. Even now, outside of schools, there aren't many secular choirs when compared with religious ones.

Also, as with KurtWagner2k, my choir instructor made it clear that if any of these songs went against your religious beliefs, you were under no orders to sing them. But she also warned up-front that the majority of the classics were written for church choirs, and that there would be Christian influences prevalent through them. When it came to Christmas carols, one of the Altos didn't sing them because she and her family were aethiests, and it made her uncomfortable. Though she wasn't in the Christmas recital, I never heard about her grade suffering for it, and she was very understanding about the rest of the classical stuff.

A last bit: I have a friend who is distinctly Pagan, and she also has a problem with the omnipresence of Christmas, and the societal pressure to BE MERRY, GODDAMN IT!! CELEBRATE!! WHAT ARE YOU, SOME SORT OF WACKO?! In her case, I think it's more that "enforcement" that bothers her than the presence of religious imagery. And that societal enforcement can get pretty bothersome indeed. In that, I agree with her. Being told "It's Christmas, therefore you MUST be happy! Otherwise you're ruining it, you old meanie!" is just as dictatorial as anything else. :shame
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Post by Crawler »

Essentially, though we may not have made this clear, I'm arguing in favor of NON-POLARIZATION. I think "Happy Holidays" is a nice all-inclusive public display.

Want to put "Merry Christmas" on your house? Go for it. Just don't be pissed when someone else has a lit Star of David on theirs.

I'm arguing against the people that want it to be a single thing when it's NOT. There have been mid-winter festivals for most of human history, so claiming that you can't take the Christ out of Christmas is just a moot point in my opinion.

It's a holiday. I say let that be as specific as stores and the government need to be.
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Post by Bamfette »

exactly. KW2K, i think you may be reading a bit too much into MY side of the argument. as i have stated countless times, i have NO PROBLEM with Christmas being celebrated. ALL i want is that it be on the SAME LEVEL as every other holiday celebrated at the same time. and for me, that means among other things removing 'Merry Christmas' from the public entities such as stores. it does not prevent people from celebrating it however they damn well please, or saying 'Merry Christmas' to anyone they may pass on the street. it is not dictating how people should behave personally, just how public entities should treat the public as a whole. and yes, right now (or until recently) it IS held above the other holidays. the whole 'Save Merry Christmas' should illustrate that.

and Christian nation.... no. while some may have been, at least Franklin and Jefferson were Deists, and some others out right said they considered religion little more than a tool to control the populace. the whole 'founded on Christian ideals' line is nothing more than right wing propoganda. while they (and other Deists) may make reference to 'god' they don't actually mean the Christian god. they mean some completely unknowable vague concept of a higher power which does not fit with ANY organized religion.

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose. " -- Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear." --Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites." -- Thomas Jefferson

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity." --Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782.

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors." --Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"

"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity" -- John Quincy Adams

""What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy." -- James Madison

"The way to see by Faith is to shut the Eye of Reason." -- Ben Franklin
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Post by HoodedMan »

It seems in the Declaration of Independence and similar articles that the purpose of the American Revolution was to give the citizens of the colonies the rights that their 'Creator' gave them, or at least that's what it says.

The idea that everyone is to be included is a Christian ideal, even if it isn't always practiced. According to Christianity, "anyone" can be saved.

I do agree, however, that Christmas is no longer a religious holiday as such in the way it's celebrated.

EDIT: Bamfette posted while I was writing. I'll look at it presently, though I would like to note that I am definitely not attempting to spread "right wing propaganda" as you would know if you knew me.
ACHTUNG! Alles touristen und non-technischen looken peepers! Das computermachine ist nicht fuer gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitzensparken. Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen. Das rubbernecken sichtseeren keepen das cotten-pickenen hans in das pockets muss; relaxen und watchen das blinkenlichten.
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Post by Bamfette »

but it is not JUST a Christian ideal. that's arrogance to think so. MANY religions and philosophies teach exactly the same thing. it is entirely possible to say that without it being in any way based on the bible.
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Post by HoodedMan »

Wow; quick post, Bamfette. Let us note for the record that I am not not participating in 'Christian arrogance'; I am simply noting as a realist that Christians are a majority and that's why Christmas is a major thing.

Shops are not public entities, though government buildings are. Shops putting up signs are simply demonstrating their freedom of speech and are not bound by the seperation of church and state though rules still apply to them in that signs must be appropriate.
ACHTUNG! Alles touristen und non-technischen looken peepers! Das computermachine ist nicht fuer gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitzensparken. Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen. Das rubbernecken sichtseeren keepen das cotten-pickenen hans in das pockets muss; relaxen und watchen das blinkenlichten.
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Post by Crawler »

Originally posted by HoodedMan
It seems in the Declaration of Independence and similar articles that the purpose of the American Revolution was to give the citizens of the colonies the rights that their 'Creator' gave them, or at least that's what it says.
This is how you give power to your words. You say that they're not rights YOU are giving the people, but that GOD gave them, and so they can not be denied.

It doesn't prove their belief. It proves that they knew their audience.
The idea that everyone is to be included is a Christian ideal, even if it isn't always practiced. According to Christianity, "anyone" can be saved.
You proved my point with that statement. Everyone is equal and everyone is included...as long as they convert.

And the "more Christmas, less Holidays" argument is the same thing. It's saying that, yes, everyone can celebrate a winter holiday...as long as it's Christmas.
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Post by HoodedMan »

Originally posted by Crawler
The idea that everyone is to be included is a Christian ideal, even if it isn't always practiced. According to Christianity, "anyone" can be saved.
You proved my point with that statement. Everyone is equal and everyone is included...as long as they convert.
Christians believe (if I remember correctly) that everyone is entitled to the liberties granted by God, even heathens. This was somewhat the basis of the Declaration even if it wasn't explicitly Christianity. It's a Christian-like ideal.
ACHTUNG! Alles touristen und non-technischen looken peepers! Das computermachine ist nicht fuer gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitzensparken. Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen. Das rubbernecken sichtseeren keepen das cotten-pickenen hans in das pockets muss; relaxen und watchen das blinkenlichten.
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Post by Bamfette »

Originally posted by HoodedMan
Wow; quick post, Bamfette. Let us note for the record that I am not a Christian and not participating in Christian arrogance; I am simply noting as a realist that Christians are a majority and that's why Christmas is a major thing.
and again, i have no problem with it being 'a major thing' all i have a problem with is it being held above other religions. just because it has a lot of followers does not mean it should be held higher than anything else.
Shops are not public entities, though government buildings are. Shops putting up signs are simply demonstrating their freedom of speech and are not bound by the seperation of church and state though rules still apply to them in that signs must be appropriate.
wether it is LAW or not does not mean it is any less inappropriate for a store to (subtly or overtly it doesn't matter, it's the idea of it that counts) promote one religions holiday above any other.
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Post by HoodedMan »

Originally posted by Bamfette
and again, i have no problem with it being 'a major thing' all i have a problem with is it being held above other religions. just because it has a lot of followers does not mean it should be held higher than anything else.
As I said, I don't think it's being held higher than other religions.
wether it is LAW or not does not mean it is any less inappropriate.
In what way is it inappropriate? Would it be inappropriate for a Jewish shopkeeper to put a Star of David in his shop window? Yes? Well, what about putting up the HRC equality logo? I do that, and the only people who disagree with it are those who don't agree with the philosophy behind it. That is what this argument seems to be.
ACHTUNG! Alles touristen und non-technischen looken peepers! Das computermachine ist nicht fuer gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitzensparken. Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen. Das rubbernecken sichtseeren keepen das cotten-pickenen hans in das pockets muss; relaxen und watchen das blinkenlichten.
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Post by Crawler »

You're still saying that it's CHRISTIAN. It's not. It's just as easily humanist or any number of other religions.

And, as illustrated by the quotes...THE AUTHOR of the document you're talking about WAS NOT CHRISTIAN.

It's like saying "it has a beak, it must be a duck because ducks are more common."
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Post by Bamfette »

yes, a star of David WOULD be inappropriate, especially if it was in association with a holiday. all i am asking for is NEUTRALITY.

and i disagree, i thinkk it is given preferential treatment.
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