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Post by Freak »

So, based on another topic (that went a bit off-topic for a moment) I noticed that we don't have a thread about downloading comics from the Internet.
Now, generally I think you can't open a thread like that since this is one of the topics that always will attract trolling, but I'm fairly sure the people here are a.) smart, and b.) treating each other with respect. so let's try it.

My opinion is as follows: I think comics should be bought. There's a simple logic to this, if you want a product keeping on being produced, you have to make it profitable for the producer.

The problems here, however, are manyfold. What about someone who simply doesn't live in the USA? I mean, you surely can get all the comics in Canada too (even though they are considerably more expensive, quite the conundrum seeing that the two countries share quite the lengthy frontier), but after that distribution is getting a bit underdeveloped. So I guess it would be fair to download comics from the Internet if they simply do not exist in your country and buying them on-line would make their prize unreasonable. This might not be the lawful solution, but it's certainly a morally acceptable one (and seeing current examples of managers getting millions even though they tanked their enterprises and quite lawfully so I'd say we all can live with a morally acceptable solution).

So, only foreigners are allowed to download comics? I think there should be other cases. What about the old stuff? Not everyone who wants to read Spiderman #1 has the few thousand bucks to spare to do so. "Wait Freak," you might say now "they're reprinting the old stories time and again in anniversary issues and the likes, people can buy them." That is absolutely right...if you're Marvel or DC or such, that is. Reprinting something that has been produced ages ago and demanding money for it time and again seems (again) maybe lawful, but morally debatable. I mean, if you come over some obscure villain in your latest Ms. Marvel issue and just want to see where they showed up the first time, this seems like an awful waste of money (and yes, slapping that old issue into the back of some anniversary or special edition issue, calling it supersized and demanding one buck more for it is still paying for the old stuff).

Now a few of you might say something like "But would you buy the comics on-line, from Marvel or DC, or some such?"
To which I can only say that, if there was a working distribution system, and if the publishers could actually pass an opportunity to get their hands on some extra cash (meaning to maybe offer the digitalized comics for a lower prize than the real ones, seeing as they don't have any additional costs but even can cut out the retailer, printing, and paper) then...I'd still not buy it.

Do you know what's the main problem with comics? They suck. Well, not all of them. And I'm fairly sure that the percentage of comics that in the general opinion of comic readers sucked is nowadays about the same as in the past (excluding the periods of indeed thoroughly sucky writing here, ie when Marvel nearly went bankrupt). Just, in general there is a fair amount of comics that suck. At least to me. And maybe, even if all the reviews tell me that the latest issue of Amazing Spider-Man is the issue of the century, I still won't like it. So i go to the comic store and read it, and if I like what I see I buy it. Try doing that on-line...yeah, that would be downloading the comic (or wading past the hundreds of gay-sex jokes (not that they were bad or even malign) in the now-deceased scans_daily). So, build your opinion just on the previews the publisher offers? That'd be about the same as buying a car and allowing the car dealer to only show you the best-looking and working part of it, may the rest be rusty and falling apart already. I guess I managed to communicate my point.

So this is my (rather lengthy) opinion on the whole comics on-line deal. I do realize that I'm not argumenting in accordance to the law, but I think especially nowadays, where the law has proven that, while acting according to it may prevent you from persecution, only using it as your moral compass is a rather shitty way to behave, there should be a discussion that transcends the mere jurisdictional plane.

So, what do you guys think? :)

[Edited on 29/3/09 by Freak]
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Post by Vaiyala »

I think it's a great idea, actually. You brought up some excellent points. The comic previews we as readers are given pretty much don't live up to their summaries half the time and so why buy something that's less than 50 pages anyway when there's a great chance it could be a let-down? (Like UXM #68... :mad)

And I know some great torrent sites that a friend hinted me to that allows for sharing comics (I even found Manifest Dynasty there).
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

As far as old stuff goes, if it's available in a trade, there is no moral excuse to download it. You can get them cheap online (YES. Even outside of the US.) with deals on shipping if you spend enough at one time.

I quit buying single issues ages ago. The cost, the storage... ugh. Give me something I can put on a shelf. But then you have to wait for the trade to talk about it with other people so that isn't perfect either.
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Post by Saint Kurt »

Freak wrote: So I guess it would be fair to download comics from the Internet if they simply do not exist in your country and buying them on-line would make their prize unreasonable. This might not be the lawful solution, but it's certainly a morally acceptable one

...

Reprinting something that has been produced ages ago and demanding money for it time and again seems (again) maybe lawful, but morally debatable.

...

I do realize that I'm not argumenting in accordance to the law, but I think especially nowadays, where the law has proven that, while acting according to it may prevent you from persecution, only using it as your moral compass is a rather shitty way to behave, there should be a discussion that transcends the mere jurisdictional plane.

So, what do you guys think? :)

So, let me get this straight: You think that it is appropriate for artists to be paid for their work, for copyright owners to exercise their rights over their own property, and for people to adhere to the regional state and federal law, only as long as it is convenient for you.

If it is inconvenient, expensive, or seems unfair at the time, it is perfectly okay to break the law just so long as you don't get caught.

I'm ... speechless.

The bright side is that your argument makes it morally unacceptable for you to do something like sell a used comic book on ebay. That comic book, having already been paid for once, should now be distributed for free. Though the law protects your right to resell your comics, demanding that someone pay for them again would be unfair. It would be more morally acceptable for you to give away your old comics rather than attempt to recoup a portion of the cost of the books by re-selling since that is, as you stated above, morally sketchy.

Either something got lost in translation or I'm seriously worried about your concept of "morality". "I might get caught" should not be the reason we don't commit crimes. We shouldn't commit crimes because doing so harms another individual (or individuals). "It's easy to break the law" should not give us an excuse to do so. The reason we have laws is not to give us a set of morals to live by, but to establish protection of our individual property and freedom.

You understood murdering another human being was wrong before you found out there was a law against it right?

Unfortunately Freak, your view IS the prevailing opinion with regards to intellectual property, with the prevailing argument being: people hardly ever get caught, therefore what I'm doing is okay. But theft is NOT okay! Why people find it so easy to rationalize stealing from each other is something I will never understand.

Even worse, theft of intellectual property really does take money away from the people who deserve it most - the artists.

:(

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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

Hold on SK, I'm going to be sure to hand in all my burned cd's.


I'm sorry Boss, I'm sorry I took a copy of the cd my uncle has. I know you worked really hard on it. But I also know you were pissed when you found out the sales of your albums, even old ones, which is why you went cardboard cover, and you were even more livid at the sale and then RESALE of your tickets.
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But hold on...
let me get this straight.

I can go and buy two tickets to U2. Now those aren't exactly cheap. The lowest priced ones are probably in the 300 range.

So I go on E-Bay and I sell them for thousands. That's okay?

What Marvel & DC has had to do to keep their company afloat sucks.
But it sucks even more for people with no money. Now don't get me wrong, I've never used online comics, downloadable or otherwise. However, with a plummeting economy, no matter how big a stinker you make of the situation, you're not going to change it.

The truth is, there is always going to be a way for people, sometimes large masses of people, to cut a corner, find a loop hole, or use a short cut. Especially in times like these. I don't hold it against anyone for having to do that. If they like a comic so much, of course they'll want to own it. It's a comic, part of the whole "comic nerd collector" thing is you need to actually have a tangible piece of paper in order to collect it.

I don't think there's a single thing wrong with this so long as the comic market continues to be so pricey. I, for a long time, have only been able to buy Ultimate Spider-Man, now I can't afford to purchase comics at all.

The industry is out of control and like the music industry, they'll have to find a way to fix it. So far Marvel has a nifty online idea but until that comes to fruition, I don't think Freak has it all that wrong. He never once said he wouldn't go out and purchase a comic he doesn't truly love, and I'm pretty sure he would too.
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Post by Freak »

I'm not sure whether I brought my point over correctly, so let me retry: I don't think that something is legal as long as you don't get caught. The problem is that laws, by theory and practice, are the lowest common denominator of a society's morals. It's the basic things that everybody can agree on and quite a few people are even proud to let this be their moral compass instead of trying to be more than that.

What's it got to do with comics is that it indeed is correct by law for Marvel to act like they act. For example publishing and republishing old stories they only paid for the first time. They have every right to do so, but, at least in my opinion, it's not something morally fair. One shouldn't think of Marvel as a group of artists working hard for a few crumbs to get by. It's big business, deeply anchored in capitalism. As such it most probably won't demand to be paid for a product what it's worth, but it will demand to be paid as much and as often as possible. Again, completely lawful, but morally hard to accept.

And Spaz, I'm a picky reader. I think it's kind of unfair to demand of me to buy in great quantities only to push the end prize into regions that are more acceptable. :)

Again: I wouldn't have this argument with Joe Q. By accepted law he's absolutely right doing what he does and the two of us are on completely different sides of the spectrum. And sharing comics might actually hurt or even help the sales, I wouldn't know until a study has been done about this. I just think that sharing comics on-line is, while most assuredly illegal, something I can accept on a moral level. :)

Edit: Re-reading sk's post I think I should make another thing clear: I'm shifting the moral weight of comic sharing around a bit so that the guilt lies on both sides equally. The amoral in practically stealing comics by not paying the publisher is lessened by the unmoral (while legal) practices of the publisher and the lacking system of distribution.

Also, by my logic reselling comics as an individual isn't wrong, since you only get paid once by it, while Marvel keeps on saying they give people more for their (increased) price and then slap some old story into the back of the issue. Though I never sell old comics or books, so I myself are in the clear here, I'd guess ;)

[Edited on 30/3/09 by Freak]
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Post by zaddraya »

I can admit that I've downloaded a few comics, mostly because it's almost the only way for me to get the newer ones. But I always feel guilty when I download something I should pay for...

(On the other hand it was more or less legal here to download (not upload) copyrighted material until two years ago or so (can't remember exactly when the law was changed) and even now it's almost impossible for the police to actually catch downloaders. So much of the stuff I have was downloaded legally.)

If it was easier to get hold of comics I would buy at least some of them. I know you can pay to read comics online legally (on marvel.com) and I've done that too, mostly because then I at least pay something for the comics even if I have a few on my computer. I'm not sure what I feel about filesharing. In a way it's good that everyone can enjoy comics, music, movies or whatever it might be but of course the artists/actors/singers ect have to get paid. But we've always been sort of strange when it comes to filesharing here in Sweden (I suppose there's a reason the pirate bay started here). I don't think filesharing will disappear, it's way too big now, but it has to somehow become legal, which seems impossible.

I know I'm not really making any sense here...
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Post by Saint Kurt »

This is all very nice folks, but it seems as though you are combining two separate issues that really have nothing to do with each other.

As I see it, they are:

1) The stuff we want is expensive.

2) There are ways to get the stuff we want without paying.


Discussion of how "laws are really just a society's lowest common denomination of morality" and how companies really should be ashamed of themselves for emptying the pockets of their poor consumers is interesting, but all of it is just making excuses for hurting other people.

It's nice to look at a large company and say "those guys are so rich, and I'm not so it's okay for me to steal from them" and feel like you're Robin Hood. Except that you're really stealing from people just like you who are working for a living too and suddenly it doesn't look so noble anymore.

If you want to get on the moral high ground and be above the lowest common denominator: pay for your software, pay for your music, pay for what you download. Who cares about what the laws say - we all agree that it's a good thing to support the arts right? Stop worrying about what anyone else is doing and do the right thing.

Believe it or not, I don't actually care if all of you have hard drives full of crap that you stole. I'm not your mom and I'm not a judge. You guys can do what you like.

I pay for my music though and it means that I never have to make up clever excuses for why it's okay for me to take from others. And if I can't afford to pay then I do without. Sometimes, life isn't fair.

I'd rather see people be honest with themselves and say "I'm stealing this music/comic/movie because I want it and I don't care about the consequences," because we're talking about a luxury item here, not something necessary for existence. And even more, I'd like to hear people say "I'm paying for this because I respect the artist and I want them to know it".

And I'm sorry if you think I'm being harsh, but there is simply nothing that anyone can say to make me believe that stealing art is okay. If it's any consolation, least any one of you think I am singling you out, I assure you I am not. Think of what I typed above as directed at an entire generation of internet users who treat the basic rights and liberties of others with a level of disrespect that is utterly disappointing to me.

I think we can be better than this.

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Post by Freak »

I don't think I'm really justifying filesharing in my comments. I pretty much called it stealing a few times. I just think this case of stealing is morally acceptable under circumstances. Here's a few points why:

-A fileshared comic isn't stolen. Someone bought it in a shop and then decided to share it. He didn't rent it from Marvel or DC, so basically they should be allowed to do with it as they please. Protecting easily reproducible art is something that is completely out of the daily life experience humans have, common sense dictates that if you buy something, you can do with it as you please. So here's a reason while filesharing as a whole is morally accepted as widely as it is (whether it's morally acceptable depends on your point of view).

-Do the artists/writers really suffer? There is a number of writers and artists the readership thoroughly agrees on being horrible (Claremont, Loeb, etc.). One would think that if filesharing decreases the ability of Marvel to pay their staff they'd start cutting the bad meat. But this doesn't really seem to happen. Quite a few (especially writers) seem to profit from being associated with a book/character that simply has a big following that only reads whatever is put out out of habit. I mean, if there's only one Hulk book out there, then obviously Hulk-fans will read it, no matter whether the only plot-point seems to be bringing in some character (Red Hulk) and then constantly dangling their real identity in front of the fans' noses. No other writer or artist can allow themselves to slack that much in their work because it isn't part of a continuing presentation that for once utilizes the human determination to gather stories and also has no alternative as it is unique. So yeah, if you don't see your money being used to bring out good work it might be morally justifiable to download comics only to keep yourself up to date.

-Now, those two points can be voided if you say that comics are only a luxury good, not something you need or even have a right to read. Though, here I think that you could point out that there is indeed a right to culture, based in the human rights charter. And even if you argue that comics aren't a medium of culture (their commentaries of contemporary events left aside) then there is still a right to entertainment, "entertainment" here being something that makes a human being think and what generally keeps us from becoming some kind of plant, brain-wise. With the economical crisis forcing more and more libraries to close the only source to free entertainment remains the Internet. Obviously it would be better if people would download and read "Lord of Flies" or something like that, but I daresay that comics are at least better than constant television or always watching youtube videos. So here's another excuse to morally justify theft.

-Final point, something I really like to point out if someone brings out how downloading comics is harmfull for people like you and me, ie the artists and writers: There are webcomics out there which, while being freely accessible, manage to nurture their creators and their families (PvP and Pennyarcade come to mind). If people manage to live on merchandise they produce themselves alone (without having a humongous merchandise machinery behind them like Marvel or DC), why should I be worried about one John Romita Jr. or one Brian Bendis which, even though downloading comics has at least been going on for a decade, if not longer, still manage to live on their salaries they get from Marvel for their work? And one shouldn't forget that they're not just producing the comics. They're producing the mythos, which then leads to masses of merchandise being sold and movies being made that cash in quite well for the enterprise of Marvel. One would assume that, if they'd indeed suffer, then it would be because Marvel isn't sharing the money they're shoveling in (even though there's downloading of comics and the way they fight it would lead to the assumption that they're nearly starving to death).

So yeah, I'd say everything boils down to: They're not really suffering and still seem to earn more money than anyone of us could ever see in their lives, so stealing a bit of entertainment (or even just completion of your collection) from the comics industry would be morally justifiable. It's not exactly stealing a loaf of bread because you're starving, but downloading comics all in all seems to be a crime without victims (I'm fairly sure that if there was even one case of an artist having to be laid off due to losses the publishers had regarding filesharing Quesada and Didio would be shouting it from the roofs on any occasion).

(I really ought to stop with those long posts, but there's so much I want to say without being misunderstood :shifty)
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Post by Saint Kurt »

I'm sorry. I can't even respond. I'm even more speechless than before.

Seriously. Can't.

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Post by HoodedMan »

Freak wrote:-A fileshared comic isn't stolen. Someone bought it in a shop and then decided to share it. He didn't rent it from Marvel or DC, so basically they should be allowed to do with it as they please. Protecting easily reproducible art is something that is completely out of the daily life experience humans have, common sense dictates that if you buy something, you can do with it as you please. So here's a reason while filesharing as a whole is morally accepted as widely as it is (whether it's morally acceptable depends on your point of view).
Too long; didn't read.

Are you sure you understand how buying and selling works, Freak? Do you honestly believe what you're saying, or are you just trolling by this point?

The buyer has absolutely no right to just "decide to share" the work. This statement is codified in any number of international conventions. You know why? Because it's not his work! He is not the creator!

He owns a reproduction of the work, but the work itself, the intellectual property, is not his. He didn't put his blood, sweat, and tears into it. It costs thousands of dollars to create such a work and he has paid a minute fraction of that, however distasteful that fraction may be to you. To suggest that by virtue of that minimal investment he now has the right to create reproductions of the work himself with no compensation to the creator has always been, and continues to be, ludicrous.

There's so much more that could be said, but honestly, it's like sandblasting a soup cracker. Anyone with the moral capacity of a middle-schooler could argue this point until the cows came home. And you still wouldn't get it.
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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

This is exactly how the debate sounded when people were burning music for the first time, and everyone adjusted to that.

I'm just waiting for the paradime shift.
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Post by HoodedMan »

Ult_Sm86 wrote:This is exactly how the debate sounded when people were burning music for the first time, and everyone adjusted to that.

I'm just waiting for the paradime shift.
Distributing illegal reproductions of music is still wrong. There may be a similar paradigm shift, but distributing illegal reproductions of comics will still be just as wrong.

One of the reasons there was a paradigm shift in the first place, especially recently, is because the music industry has started distributing reproductions in ways that are more accessible to the consumer.

[Edited on 31/3/09 by HoodedMan]
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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

Not sure why my computer let me spell paradigm wrong, it even had the red squiggle, and my lazy ass was confused as hell.
I'm getting really lazy... *picks up a book*


Dave Matthews said in 2006 or so:
"if you dig an artist that much, then you should want to help keep that artist alive by purchasing the actual recording.”

However, and this is as recent as early '08, he also pointed out that (and this is not a direct quote but I watched the inverview that he said this on): the passing around of our music is what got us to the place we're at. When people started copying our cd's, we saw our concert halls begin to really fill up. I can't blame people for wanting to share good music, 'nor would I attack them for doing so. If they're trying to make money off of it and illegally distributing it to people they don't even know, as a purchase? I don't dig that. But they're sharing what they think makes us special, and someone says 'yeah man I'm really feeling that', and they come by and pick up the cd for themselves, or older cd's, or the next cd. It doesn't matter which it is, they just made us a new fan. That's great.


Does this same rule apply to Comics?
I don't know.
As I said in chat, I'm on the fence on this one. I am furious with the industry at how much they charge, but as Paty has brought up many times before, most of the artists aren't being paid what they deserve anyways (which makes me wonder why I'm paying 3.whateverthefuckitisthatmonth if theyr'e not getting it.)

So can I blame someone for illegally downloading a comic? No. Do I do it or condone it? From my previous posts you would think yes, but I actually don't. I remove myself from doing so and therefore can't make an exact opinion on it.
I do, however; agree with what Dave was getting at. He really nailed it on the head, that some of this is about sharing new interests. As I said before, if I really like the comic that I hypothetically have downloaded, I'll be sure to get it.
Because comics is partly about collecting and you can't flash a hypothetical PDF around, or get your illegally hypothetical downloaded PDF signed by the artist at Comic-Con, can you?

I really feel a lot of this "debate" is blowing smoke up the other persons ass, and maybe we're all taking it a little too seriously.

[Edited on 31/3/09 by Ult_Sm86]
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Saint Kurt wrote:I'm sorry. I can't even respond. I'm even more speechless than before.

Seriously. Can't.

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What, you don't want to address Freak's claim of having a "right to entertainment"? Too bad the UN is so busy with all the wars and stuff that they don't have time to issue a statement on Marvel's gross violation of human rights by expecting people to PAY CASH MONEY for a PRODUCT.
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Post by Freak »

Seeing as this starts to become about me rather than about the issue at hand I guess i was wrong to open such a topic here after all, sad.

I just can say to this that all I did was try to find and point out moral justifications of downloading comics, I never said it's a highly moralistic thing to do. I'm especially surprised that my pointing out of how the human mind works and how it clashes with how the laws work was instantly transfered into being my opinion and condemned. It's really great if you're that much of a head-person that you can think yourself into the reality of original work and reproduction, I just pointed out that this isn't how the human mind originally works and a lot of people still follow that old paradigm.

Also, HM, it appears that you have missed the point I made:
The buyer has absolutely no right to just "decide to share" the work. This statement is codified in any number of international conventions.
I said from the beginning that this isn't a question of law, including obviously "international conventions". Yes, I know you'll say it is a question of law because you can get sued for it, or something like that. But I made this a question rather of the morality of the thing, and not its legality pretty much from the beginning.

But oh well, guess there goes that discussion :shrug
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Freak wrote: It's really great if you're that much of a head-person that you can think yourself into the reality of original work and reproduction, I just pointed out that this isn't how the human mind originally works and a lot of people still follow that old paradigm.
I'm not enough of a head person to figure out what you're trying to say here. "Someone makes something and other people pay to see/use/enjoy it" isn't a new concept. I'm sure that sneaking in to the theatre was frowned on in ancient times.

The problem is that it used to be a lot harder to get things for free. You'd have to cue the tape or make photocopies, you couldn't just enter "Uncanny X-Men 184" into a search engine, double click your mouse, and minutes later be flipping through a high quality, full colour, bright, shiny, wonderful, and most importantly, weightless (oh yes and free) digital copy.
I said from the beginning that this isn't a question of law, including obviously "international conventions". Yes, I know you'll say it is a question of law because you can get sued for it, or something like that. But I made this a question rather of the morality of the thing, and not its legality pretty much from the beginning.
The reason people bring up laws is that the jump from legal to moral is not so far in this case. I made something, you bought one copy. Great. Now you are making copies of it and giving it to anyone who wants one for free, so I'm not getting anything out of it except the $3.95 from the inital sale, which is nowhere near what it is worth but I was hoping to spread the cost among several people. Which failed. What now? I'm fucked. And that's why we have laws.
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Post by Freak »

I hadn't planned to post in here again since this thread had seemed to have tanked already, but you're actually making pretty good points, Spaz. :)

I'll try another time to explain my argument with comics belonging to the one who bought them: I think, and this is supported by various posts I've read about the topic of filesharing over the years, that a large quantity of people thinks, at least subconsciously, that if you buy a comic, it's up to you what you do with it afterwards. And in a way it makes sense, I mean, all in all, if you buy a hammer you don't want the producer to butt in anymore on what you do with it. Here I think Spaz has made a good argument with pointing out that, unlike with a hammer, which you use and reuse and can't make absolutely equal copies of, the business in comics is made with copies of the original product, so all the money is in the copies, which, by filesharing, are distributed freely.

I think I'll use that point in discussions about filesharing in the future.

I also like bringing up that it's easier to make illegal copies nowadays. Maybe this does in fact influence the way people are ready to make downloading comics something morally acceptable?

I also came up with something that kind of voids one of my points earlier. I brought up the right for entertainment and said that downloading comics might be seen as a replacement for the ever shrinking numbers of libraries. I also brought up webcomics at some point, which are indeed free. So, i guess one could argue that instead of downloading comics that normally cost money, one could just read the comics that are free anyway. They'd obviously not be the stories of the characters we like, but they can be good nevertheless and even a culturally more valuable product.

Also, zaddraya, thanks for your input earlier. I think this topic might follow different directions according to your national, meaning: cultural, background too. :)

(So, you see, this thread isn't intended to morally justify downloading comics, it's about the moral in doing so. I'd rather have this discussion be held in a neutral way. I may be coming up with pro-download points, but that doesn't mean this has to be discussed on a personal level. I actually thought that especially the Americans, having a culture of debate, would appreciate this.)
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Post by zaddraya »

Freak wrote: Also, zaddraya, thanks for your input earlier. I think this topic might follow different directions according to your national, meaning: cultural, background too. :)
Agreed :) Here it is not considered so bad to download, mostly because people know that artists/actors/whatever don't get much of the money we pay for products we buy. Filesharing has become a way of protesting now. We even have a political party called the Pirate Party (and one called the anti-piracy party, though none of them are big enough to make any impact yet) so it's a big question here, especially now with the trial against pirate bay. I don't download a lot of things compared to many of my friends. Filesharing won't go away, we need to find a way to make it acceptable (I would gladly pay for the stuff I download but to be honest I can't, at least not when it comes to comics, if I don't want to pay ridiculous prices for import). If someone can find a way to make it legal and fair I'd be very happy!

And don't get me wrong now, I don't think it's right to download everything if you can go to the store and pay for it. This only concerns things I can't buy. If you want a movie (easier to get than comics at least), go and buy it, don't download it.
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Post by Angelique »

I have to add that with the increasing availability of web and print-on-demand comics, free recordings of television shows on network web sites, and options to buy music directly online, overhead is lower, the cost to the customer is lower, fewer middle-men are involved, and more money can go to the actual artists.

The idea that illegal file-sharing is justifiable becomes less tenable the more available and affordable legal downloading of television, books, and music get.
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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

But I stress again, comics are far more unique than TV, Music, or Film. This is about collecting. More so than any other entertainment venue. Ownership plays a big part in comics, and if the reader is getting a kick out of a story, I imagine he/she will go purchase it.
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Post by Saint Kurt »

I'm sorry that the direction the discussion took was disappointing Freak. It's a good topic, but one that I can't think creatively on I'm afraid. For my entire adult life I have budgeted more for books, music, and art supplies each month than I have for food. People ask how I've stayed so thin and that is how. I am being completely serious. I value it that much. But that is my choice and most people I've told think it's a pretty dumb choice.

I'm not here to impose judgement, bum anybody's high, or claim moral superiority. If you feel comfortable downloading/digitally reproducing others' artwork without paying for it then by all means continue. Bman is right - there HAS been a shift of thinking and more and more people who would never dream of shoplifting do feel comfortable making digital copies of music and software. Would the paradigm shift continue, it would be cool to see the advent of digital reproduction (which is very inexpensive and infinitely flexible) create a a scenario which artists have an ever expanding potential to both increase their audience and make a living. That would require a very broad shift in thinking about what constitutes "buying" something by the audience, the corporations that represent artists and control distribution, and the artists themselves.


Slightly on topic: Yesterday, I went to my local library and borrowed a stack of trade paperbacks and independent graphic novels that I'd never seen by artists I've never heard of. In two weeks I can return it and get a new stack of books. It won't cost me a cent (unless I bring them back late!)

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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Saint Kurt wrote: Slightly on topic: Yesterday, I went to my local library and borrowed a stack of trade paperbacks and independent graphic novels that I'd never seen by artists I've never heard of. In two weeks I can return it and get a new stack of books. It won't cost me a cent (unless I bring them back late!)

-e
Ah, if only. My local library (when I had one) pretty much only had Crossgen trades. I read them, they were okay. But not what I really wanted to read.

Right now I have no permanent address so I don't buy anything that I can't carry or wouldn't be willing to leave behind. Yet I've been reading comic books... so yeah.

In Canada downloading isn't considered so bad either, at least not for music. It was almost legal, I'm not sure if it still is though. There was (is?) a tax on recordable media like blank CDs that goes to record companies.
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Post by fourpawsonthefloor »

There still is that tax in Canada - and it's not just a few pennies either. It was the canadian governments way of still ensuring that the record companies got their due.
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

It's still cheaper than actually buying things, even if you burn everything you download.
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