Strange times: (Paradigm change?)

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Ult_Sm86
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Strange times: (Paradigm change?)

Post by Ult_Sm86 »

Here's another interesting article I found on Newsweek. It seems Christianity is fading out here in the U.S..

All, if not most of you, know my personal views on religion. I discriminate equally (:cracked) so you don't need me to explain to you why I immediately found this article intriguing. In no way am I posting this article as an attack on christianity or any believers, let me make that clear.

However, I do think it's a shame that so many people lose a strong faith. I am all for a loss of fanatic, radicalism and sheep herding, but society clearly needs religion. I don't want to know what's behind the door of an America that doesn't believe in anything.

(Though of course it will only be a matter of time until someone says Science is the new religion, and I'll have something to say about that when it happens).
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Angelique
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Strange times: (Paradigm change?)

Post by Angelique »

I don't think there will ever be "an American that doesn't believe in anything." As I think the article pointed out, changes in religious demographics in the US tend to be fluid and cyclical. Just because there is a lower percentage of Americans reporting any religious affiliation today doesn't mean religious belief is in irreversible decline.
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Strange times: (Paradigm change?)

Post by fourpawsonthefloor »

I would agree. I have a firm belief system and a ton of faith - however I wouldn't say that I have any religious 'affiliation'. I'm not a part of any organized church.
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Strange times: (Paradigm change?)

Post by Saint Kurt »

Ult_Sm86 wrote:(Though of course it will only be a matter of time until someone says Science is the new religion...
I hope not.

Science is the systematic study of the tangible world whereas faith is confidence in the intangible in the absence of evidence.

While they are not incompatible, they can't replace each other either.

That said, it doesn't really bother me that people don't feel the need to affiliate themselves with organized religion.

These articles (from the same issue of Time) worry me more:

Generation Diva - about how children's beauty pageants are becoming more and more popular
Pro-Anorexia Groups on Facebook - these groups and sites used to be very underground, now they are not

I think it ties into this phenomenon: The Mirror Effect which scares me more than the economy, war in the middle east, and combined.

It also might explain why people aren't bothering to bother with things like belief systems.

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Strange times: (Paradigm change?)

Post by Ult_Sm86 »

Actually SK, I agree. True science isn't out to lay claim to "facts", or to assume that it has the solution for life, the way I (personally) feel religion sometimes claims to have.


Just incase I'm a lot more tired than I really am, let me re-word that.


Personally? I'm not against a nation that doesn't believe in a God, but the problem is there's too many people who can't handle that. They can't handle a life that doesn't have a God because they think that means there's nothing to believe in. I'm an atheist, and I'm not afraid. I believe in things all the time. I believe the universe is the most astounding amazing thing in the world. I believe that there is more to this Dark matter thing than people are giving thought too, and I think we're going to find some amazing, astounding, humbling, and terrifying things.

I am very afraid that people will feel that science is the answer, and figuring out what dark matter is, or what's beyond it, is going to break our perception about a lot of things and possibly cause backlash...

But that's because I live in this time, with these groups of knowledge. What I have now, is what is law until we find out what works better. Physics became Quantum physics, which is now bending into String Theory and other amazing things.
However religion is steadfast. It claims to always have the answers, always the right way, and always claims there is no way for contradiction. This is (to me) clearly false. So what I'm getting at here is;

Am I against a non-religious America? Hell no.
Am I scared of an America that worships the idea of Science solving all its problems. Yes.
Do I think we should all just sit down one day, look at the stars, and say "wow.... I think I'll just appreciate it as is... and that should be good enough".
Yes, very much. But that will never happen, and hopefully I won't live long enough to see the wonders of science tear humanity apart. I've already seen a lot of Religion take that task, and it has been doing so for a lot longer than science has (will?)
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Angelique
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Strange times: (Paradigm change?)

Post by Angelique »

There are a couple of problems with your suggestions, however. Any religion that claims to have all the answers should be avoided, along with any Kool-Aid they serve. Most religions make no such claim, but rather claim to have some answers to questions science does not address. Not the how things came into being and happen, but the why, what it all means, and what we should do.

And for the Christian who views the stars as part of God's creation, thanking God for the stars is appreciating them just as they are.

The dangers of a religion-free society could include a more extreme acceptance of moral relativism and nihilism- not to mention greater ignorance of and less tolerance for religion specifically and generally anything non-secular.

But as long as real freedom of religion is allowed and encouraged, I see no reason to worry about this happening.

I also wasn't clear on how I phrased my original post. A decline in the percentage of people claiming religious affiliation does indeed not mean a decline in religious faith. But what I meant was that it also does not represent an irreversible decline in those claiming religious affiliation. A lot of people who leave organized religion behind return to it one way or another. This is not a death knell for Christianity or its relevance in our society.
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Post by Saint Kurt »

Alcoholics Anonymous, who have a pretty good track record in getting angry intractable drunks thinking about God, seeking sobriety, and living remarkable lives says it best when they use the words "Higher Power". AA also has that nice little saying: "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." That saying pretty much sums it up for me because the hard part is knowing the difference. The simplest and best reason I can think of to believe in a higher power is that it means I've accepted there are things in the world that I don't know about and I can't control.

All the rest is just window dressing. It also means that I can't pretend to know what God wants. People think that belief in God is the easy way out, a form of surrender - but it's the opposite. It's about being your best, smartest, strongest, wisest self because it's a crazy world and there is a lot of bad stuff you can't control. But there is some you can and when the time comes, you want to be ready.

This is why that Mirror Effect link scares me the most. There is a disturbing trend in western society that says it IS about ME and I DO have total control. But we don't. We can't. Because having total control means that when things don't go our way it's our fault and we're being punished and that's a lot of pressure.

Faith isn't about declaring yourself Christian on a form.

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Ult_Sm86
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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

Nor would I think it's a good idea to lay claim to being able to have total control. Or even having it. That's.... demented.

I live my life as laid back as possible based on my own personal set of beliefs, and my beliefs alone tell me that I don't need a strict list of text to tell me how to do things. And in doing so, I was filled with doubt, questioning, reason, and logic.
Does this mean everyone should do the same? Of course not. If you can live your life just fine without that text or with it, and do just as good a job as being a good person as you can, then why does it matter?
But I do think there's a swift change in religious views coming in, specifically from the youth.
I think a lot of Americans are starting to view things the way Thomas Paine once did.
"All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." The Age of Reason
It may be questionable as to where this occurrence or sudden burst of the faithless comes from, but I personally feel that bit is irrelevant. What is relevant is a major change in how America views religion is clearly occurring and when reading that article, it's almost gives new hope to my own personal opinion of majority of America. (AOL Keyword: Almost)
Seems to me most of this country is living under Pascal's Wager anyways.


[Edited on 5/4/09 by Ult_Sm86]
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Angelique
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Strange times: (Paradigm change?)

Post by Angelique »

And see, I don't think any major change is taking place. As the article itself quoted, there's nothing new under the sun. The numbers of people claiming religious affiliation has waxed and waned before, each time with great hew and cry over great revivals or the death of God.

And then things settle down and we find that the world has not been converted, or that religion is still practiced and thriving despite whatever rumors there may have been to the contrary.

It helps me that I also take every single thing Newsweek says about religion with a grain of salt or several. Their writers have predicted the death of the Catholic Church several times already, too.

[Edited on 6/4/2009 by Angelique]
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Strange times: (Paradigm change?)

Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Saint Kurt wrote:People think that belief in God is the easy way out, a form of surrender - but it's the opposite. It's about being your best, smartest, strongest, wisest self because it's a crazy world and there is a lot of bad stuff you can't control. But there is some you can and when the time comes, you want to be ready.

This is why that Mirror Effect link scares me the most. There is a disturbing trend in western society that says it IS about ME and I DO have total control. But we don't. We can't. Because having total control means that when things don't go our way it's our fault and we're being punished and that's a lot of pressure.
Nah. I scored massively high on the narcissism test (shocking to all, I'm sure) but it's not about having total control over everything. It's about testing the limits of your own control. Thinking your limits are high isn't the same as thinking you have no limits.

You can just as easily flip that argument around to say that if you believe in God, then when things go wrong it's because God is punishing you. Not believing in God doesn't mean you think you understand everything on your own, it just means you are not willing to attribute what is not known (or knowable) to a conscious force, or higher personality. The universe is greater than us, but it doesn't have self-awareness, and even if it did, it could not alter its own course.

I suppose I'm a bit of a fatalist. Everything that happens happens for a reason, if we could know everything about the past and present, we could know the future.... but we can't.
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