Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread?)

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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Bamfette »

Evolution does have holes, but for the most part i don't find them to be that glaring. and as for being an 'incomplete' theory, well, so is Gravity. that's part of what makes a theory a theory, and it doesn't actually make it any less valid, contrary to what the IDers will try to tell you. we have THOUSANDS of 'incomplete' theories that are the basis for modern science, very few if any will *ever* truly be 'complete' becaue science always raises new questions when it finds answers. we answer one part, but find 10 more questions in the process, and there is nothing wrong with that. that's what gives science the power to explain so much. no we don't have a fossil to fill every transitionary phase, but with the conditions needed to make a fossil in the first place, it's understandable, it would be next to impossible to fill every gap. and we can come pretty close.

Image
(note: A is a modern chimpanzee, the rest are historical homonid fossils, up until the last which is a modern human. K and L are Neandertal so not technically a transitionary step to humans, merely another closely related branch)


ID can't even be classified as a theory, though. it is at best a hypothosis. a theory, in scientific terms, has to be testable and have evidence to support it, and be used to make predictions. ID just doesn't fit. it's not testable, it has no evidence, and makes no predictions.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Angelique »

I would not even call ID a scientific hypothesis, and I actually believe in it, because ID addresses philosophical questions science tends not to even touch. (That's why I learned about ID in philosophy, and the only mention of it I heard in any of my geology or biology classes was, "even if evolution did happen as the current theory stands, that does not preclude the existence and involvement of God.")
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by HoodedMan »

Originally posted by Bamfette
Evolution does have holes, but for the most part i don't find them to be that glaring. and as for being an 'incomplete' theory, well, so is Gravity. that's part of what makes a theory a theory, and it doesn't actually make it any less valid, contrary to what the IDers will try to tell you. we have THOUSANDS of 'incomplete' theories that are the basis for modern science, very few if any will *ever* truly be 'complete' becaue science always raises new questions when it finds answers. we answer one part, but find 10 more questions in the process, and there is nothing wrong with that. that's what gives science the power to explain so much. no we don't have a fossil to fill every transitionary phase, but with the conditions needed to make a fossil in the first place, it's understandable, it would be next to impossible to fill every gap. and we can come pretty close.
Exactly. And what I'm trying to say is an incomplete theory of evolution does not imply the existence of intelligent design. But it appears that most of the people who replied on here agree with that.

The theory of gravity is an excellent example, by the way. And while I was looking at interesting facts about the theory of evolution: Did you know that humans share 43% of their genes with a banana? That amused me. (I looked it up, and you'll hear anything from 40-50%. But last I heard it was 42 or 43%.)
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Bamfette »

well, Kirk Cameron will have a lot of explaining to do about THAT: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 2081345878

(wait for the ludicrous banana bit)

;)

nevermind that yes indeed the banana we so often see in supermarkets was designed to be appealing and easy to eat by humans. BY US! it is an infertile triploid to make it so it has no seeds, and also make it grow larger, every banana tree on the planet (of the commercial variety, anyway) is essentially a clone. it is incapaple of reproducing without human assistance. plus, if the banana is such prrof, how do they explain the pineapple, the coconut, the eggplant, etc. needless to say, the video was far from convincing, and if anyone used those arguments on me, i'd tear the arguments apart. like that Darwin quote? maybe they should try including his WHOLE statement, the two sentences which follow it are
When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false; but the old saying of Vox populi, vox Dei, as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science. Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certainly the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, should not be considered as subversive of the theory.
and i need to find a smaller version of that skull pic. i know there must be a smaller version out there...
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by HoodedMan »

Originally posted by Bamfette
plus, if the banana is such prrof, how do they explain the pineapple, the coconut, the eggplant, etc. needless to say, the video was far from convincing, and if anyone used those arguments on me, i'd tear the arguments apart.
Well, just to make it clear, I was not citing the similarity as proof of intelligent design or of any hole in Darwin's theory; I was noting that it was an amusing fact. My theory is not in opposition to yours.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Bamfette »

oh, i know. just the banana reference reminded me of the video...
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by fourpawsonthefloor »

Speaking of ID - has anyone ever heard of the flying spagetti monster?

Evolution vs creationism vs Flying Spaghetti Monster?
A new satirical element has entered the US debate about whether teachers must teach so-called "Intelligent Design" (modified creationism) alongside evolution. Concerned citizen Bobby Henderson is petitioning school boards to also teach "pastafarianism", the gospel according to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The Science Creative Quarterly at UBC is supporting this effort with a prize of 1000 packages of ramen noodles for the best evidence that the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists. You can buy FSM plush toys, video or decals, or download free stencils and screensavers.
It's bizarre and it's snowballing! Check it out. http://www.venganza.org/

Very amusing. Somehow I suspect the fundies aren't as amused. While I respect and love God, I am happy with this unique way to get a point across.

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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by HoodedMan »

That's HILARIOUS. Unfortunately, it probably wouldn't get past most annoying legislators, but I know a few who are so down to earth they would agree completely. If you want to teach this one hypothesis, why not force them to teach the other? I love that.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Confizzle »

Well... I'm a conservative and i'm okay...:)

I've always wondered on evoultion and creataition, why can't it be both?:? I mean does it every say how long God's days are. Just thought that up recently and might as well say it.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by idsunki »

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I've got BREAKING NEWS.

http://www.sciohost.org/ncse/kvd/kitzmi ... 051220.pdf

In Philly, ID is a no-go in science classes. There's some pretty strong language in it, too. Go read page 137 to see what I mean.

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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Angelique »

:rolleyes

Yes, students should be made aware of problems with the theory of evolution, just as I was taught in geology that there are problems with the plate tectonics theory. But I stand by my opinion that there should be no problem with a public school teaching Intelligent Design- in a philosophy class.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Bamfette »

Originally posted by idsunki
Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I've got BREAKING NEWS.

http://www.sciohost.org/ncse/kvd/kitzmi ... 051220.pdf

In Philly, ID is a no-go in science classes. There's some pretty strong language in it, too. Go read page 137 to see what I mean.

Breathtaking inanity!
yes, i heard about that the other day, great news. even if it was a bit of a moot point in Dover sicne the school board members who proposed the ID thing got the boot, anyway. but it sets an important precident.

there were a few quotes from the ruling i liked, but will have to go looking for them....
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by LadyErin »

Originally posted by confusedelf
Well... I'm a conservative and i'm okay...:)

I've always wondered on evoultion and creataition, why can't it be both?:? I mean does it every say how long God's days are. Just thought that up recently and might as well say it.
But which creation myth? And which God or Goddess?

That is kinda the sticking point, I think. Science is science. Religion is religion and should not be taught as science - even in theory.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Angelique »

Well, see, I don't think any creation myth would be taught as science in the first place, only that science may not preclude the general idea that some deity is responsible.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by idsunki »

Image

If it's truth you're looking for, Dr. Tyree's philosophy class is right down the hall.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Bamfette »

Discovery Institute's predictable response:

http://tinyurl.com/d5eaj

to which I say: :rolleyes their 'wedge strategy' hit a MAJOR roadblock with this ruling. they don't want to accept it being taught in a philosophy class, they want it to replace modern science. they've said so themselves, as i pointed out a while back in this thread, and was also outlined in the ruling. so now they're attempting to backpeddle so they can have another go somewhere else. I read every word of the judges ruling and it seemed to me he had a pretty firm grasp of what Intelligent Design was all about. and their 'activist judge' is a Christian himself, and actually on the conservative side. was appointed by Geaorge W. bush, even. liberal activist? hardly. he jsut seems like a guy who understands the need for keeping religion and government separate. and he explicity states that this isn't a ruling on ID itself, but only this particular instance. so basically, Discovery Institute saw an opportunity to rant, so did, despite what was ACTUALLY said... he did (rather thoroughly) thrash ID as a scientific theory. just because it does not meet the standards of a real scientific theory does not mean someone isn't able to believe it in their peronal lives. just that it has no place in science classes.

oh and speaking of the ruling, anyone else who's read it... i found it pretty apalling how one new board member with an agenda managed to push this through subversive means such as essentially holding the biology textbook the teachers needed hostage until the teachers agreed to having 'Of Pandas and People' available as a supplementary text. and the copies of Pandas bought through church donations? yeah. and of course his various public statements, such as '2000 years ago, someone died on a cross. isn't it about time someone stood up for him?' (paraphrased, going from memory here. but i think that's pretty close to word for word) and having his wife give a speech with bible quotes form Genesis and whatnot. the whole ID situation in dover 'not religious' my ass.

oh, and on a lighter note...

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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by HoodedMan »

Gah! I swear, that's the ugliest thing I've seen in a long time... :D
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Bamfette »

well... i guess they don't call him the Flying Spaghetti Monster without reason :P
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by HoodedMan »

Well, I'm just saying it deserves the title. ;)
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Garble »

I love the Flying Spaghetti Monster. He's the new Invisible Pink Unicorn.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Bamfette »

the IPU is great, too. considered using the IPU logo as an avatar a little while ago....

new topic. was cruising around the net, and ended up at this, somehow (no, i am not a member of their forums): http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.p ... ost1159980

I find that so sad.... and insulting. can't have morality without religion. pfffft.

did you know that over 50% of the American prison population is Chrisatian while only 0.29% is Atheist? (according to one of my sister's old textbooks, The New Criminology "Professor of Psychology at the University of Pittsburgh, examined 1,916 prisoners and said, "Indifference to religion, due to thought, strengthens character," adding that Unitarians, Agnostics, Atheists and Free-Thinkers were absent from penitentiaries, or nearly so.") granted, the numbers make it seem like a more vast gulf then it would be if you consider how the population is divided over religion in general (in the US 77% Christian, 10% Atheist) but still.... it's fairly obvious that lacking religion does not turn people into criminals :rolleyes I know the last time i stole something was when i was, like 6(ish), and i stole a toy from a doctors office. my mom (former Catholic, but i did not even realize this till i was 10 or so. we were raised pretty much Atheist. I have never been religious a day in my life) told me that the toy was there for others as well, i was preventing other kids from having fun. She played on my empathy for others, not some arbitrary rule, and that is what shapes my ethics/morals today: empathy for others. I never stole again. let alone hurt someone physically. I've not been perfect by any stretch, I can't deny i've lied and other relatively minor things, but given that there are even confessionals in Catholic churches, it seems fairly obvious that the religious are not, either. and before anyone thinks she was just passing down her morals from when she was Catholic, I will point out that she had never told me about the Ten Commandments at that point, i had no idea what the Commandments were, and it wasn't 'this is wrong just because it is, and you will be punished if you do it' she stressed the effect on other people most strongly. and also point to my father. He is a third generation atheist, is 54, has never been arrested, and in general is a very good person. for instance, he donates his time, effort and money to build special computers for quadrapalegics who will spend the rest of their lives in hospitals, unable to communicate if not for the computers he builds and donates to them. he also visits them more often than their own families do. he does this simply because he could see that their lives could be made better, and that if he were in the same position, he would like someone to do the same. that's all it takes to lead an ethical life without religion, it's not hard.

as an aside, i can't believe how many in that thread are using variatons on Pascal's Wager in that thread... i thought the Wager had been soundly put to rest some time ago as being completely unrealistic... it's a ridiculous argument.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by NachtcGleiskette »

What i find incredible about that, is this man admitting that if it wasn't for the belief that he would be punished in the afterlife, he'd gladly be a terrible person. Like, if it wasn't for the looming God, he would cheat on his wife, teach his kids to steal, etc. What kind of person is this? It's absolutely sick that a person would treat others well, not because they are a decent human being, but because they are afraid of being punished? What a selfish and phony existance!

Now, there is only one thing that gets me riled up in this world (*ahem*) and that's discussion of religion. Mainly, because I am very much a live and let live person. I don't know what you believe, and frankly I don't care. I may disagree, I may completely dislike what you think, hell, maybe I think you'll burn...who knows? It's not my business to tell you what to believe, nor is it your business to know what i believe, ya know? That's what drives me so crazy, is people of ANY faith (or lack there of ;)) who feel the need to convert, push, or outright bully their beliefs onto other people. I don't get it. What difference does it make what your neighbor believes? If you are happy, be happy....

One problem I have with Christianity (and I don't mean to pick it out, but this is something I've been thinking about alot lately, and what with the plethora of conservative christians etc. in the media lately, well, they're out there) is that, for the most part, the BIGGEST teachings of the Bible and Jesus Christ are thrown to the side and focus turns to the smallest things. (And I'm not talking about ALL Christians here.....just some). Christianity was based on love for fellow man, trust, and forgiveness. At least, this is what I learned. Basically, if you are a good person, and live your life to the best you can, don't hurt others, abide by your basic commandments, you're golden. Where did all these other rules come from? The Bible?

Here's my biggest problem: The Bible. How can a faith have a book which they follow, then pick and choose what they are going to believe? How can you have a book which completely outlines what your faith is, then pick and choose what to follow? What if you pick the wrong thing? What if during that whole time you were picketing gay marriage, you really shouldn't have been eating shellfish? Oops! Welcome to hell! I mean, if we're going to take some Bible passages literally, and follow them, we should be following all of them. Women should be completely subserviant, men should be allowed to sell their daughters into slavery, not to mention all those ridiculous laws which if broken sentence the guilty to death, without trial. I mean, doesn't this make sense? How do you interpret one thing to be the most important, in an entire book that a faith is based on?

This is mainly my problem with the fundies. The really crazy ones. I know that 75-80% of Christians are great people. It's just the crazy ones get all the press, and it's annoying....I don't get them. If God created all of us in his image, how are any of us less than others?

As for me, I rarely share my faith. Mainly, I'm still in that "what do I believe" phase. I know I believe certain things (I am terminally science-minded..which causes finding my faith difficult. Sadly, one thing I truly don't believe in is an afterlife. This is something I've explored in my artwork, and it scares me all the time that this is IT, ya know? And as much as I sometimes WANT to believe in it, I can't. It's bizarre....), sometimes I head toward agnostic, but I definately am not an atheist. I just can't rule OUT the fact there's a God, ya know? So why not be in between? Lol...sometimes I feel like I'm alllll about the middle ground...

But I love the Bible...mainly as a read. It's a very interesting collection of stories. And sometimes, can't that be ok? Can't they just be stories?

Sometimes I feel like everyones just gotta stop being so serious and stop being so sensitive and take a 5 second break from life. Really. Don't live for anything else, or anyone else, or the possibility of a reward later. You don't wanna live a life you didn't enjoy only to learn you were wrong at the end....and if you're right, and there is a reward, well, you were a good person, weren't you? So why shouldn't you be rewarded?



(fyi: I did not intend this to be so....long. Wow. Ever have something rolling around your head forever and finally get it out? Yeah....lol)
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Angelique »

>That's what drives me so crazy, is people of ANY faith (or lack there of ;)) who feel the need to convert, push, or outright bully their beliefs onto other people.

The problem is that actually, there are a few faiths, not just Christianity, that make a point of requiring evangelism. If you insist that people put the kibbosh on sharing their faith, you are expecting them to violate their own beliefs for whatever reason you may have for not wanting to hear it.
And I don't want to live in a society that prohibits all religious expression on the grounds that someone might be offended about any perceived attempt at evangelism or proselytizing.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by NachtcGleiskette »

Originally posted by Angelique
>That's what drives me so crazy, is people of ANY faith (or lack there of ;)) who feel the need to convert, push, or outright bully their beliefs onto other people.

The problem is that actually, there are a few faiths, not just Christianity, that make a point of requiring evangelism. If you insist that people put the kibbosh on sharing their faith, you are expecting them to violate their own beliefs for whatever reason you may have for not wanting to hear it.
And I don't want to live in a society that prohibits all religious expression on the grounds that someone might be offended about any perceived attempt at evangelism or proselytizing.
I'm aware that most religions are encouraged to share their faith with others, and for the most part thats not a problem. Jehovah's witness' show up at my house, I send them away, they leave, it's fine. It's the people who use more bullying tactics, who attack peoples morals/values/integrity/even intelligence in order to "show them the light of God." Is this God's intent? Does God want people to believe in him because they've been told by others if they don't they're stupid and will burn for an eternity in hell? Or would God rather have people come to a conclusion about him on their own, by taking in whatever miracles there are in the world?

If there is in fact a God, he gave us each a unique set of reasoning skills to come to our own conclusions. I understand the whole "doing God's work" thing and how important it is in religions, but there's a difference between "sharing God's word" and degrading other people of other faiths...

And I wasn't just talking about Christianity here, as I said in the passage. Any faith, even Atheism. Again, live and let live. Share your beliefs, people may disagree, but who cares? No skin off your back.....
"If you live your life to please everyone else, you will continue to feel frustrated and powerless. This is because what others want may not be good for you. You are not being mean when you say NO to unreasonable demands or when you express your ideas, feelings, and opinions, even if they differ from those of others.â€
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Angelique »

Well, some people are more sensitive to others. In some places, I might not even be able to wear a cross necklace without people being offended. Some forums will not accept my fics because, due to the fact that a couple main characters happen to be Catholic and deal with various matters as Catholics tend to, all of the sudden the stories are no better than Chick tracts.

Also fundamental to many faiths is the need for contrition and repentance- beginning with recognition of the fact that we do indeed do wrong and need forgiveness. Granted, I think railing against everything that people do wrong is neither effective nor even good. But human reasoning is by no stretch perfect, nor perfectly applied, and in a few instances, as unpleasant as it clearly is, some people need to hear "What you're doing is wrong," without taking it as an insult.
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