Canadian elections

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Bamfette
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Post by Bamfette »

Just curious, for the Canadians out there... thoughts on the elections?

Me, I am really torn. I wish there was a good protest vote, but I think I'll vote for the NDP candidate in my riding, mostly because i went to high school with him, and the party... i *mostly* agree with it.... I know NDP has like NO chance here (Alberta. Canada's Texas. and there's an incumbant that's just a force of habit for people to vote for in this riding. my parents are voting for him without even thinking about it. without knowing a thing about the others.) but...

Ok, here's why I'm torn. it will be rambly, I'm trying to organize my thoughts as to why i think this as type this, so forgive me.

The Liberals (for the Americans reading, that's Liberal with a capital L, not quite the same meaning as the small L version. it's the name of the party, I'd consider myself a small L liberal, personally. The Liberal party is a lot like the American Democrats) were corrupt, and that's bad. I don't think a corrupt party should be re-elected, unless they cut out the corrupt members, which they haven't. However, I dislike the Conservatives, as well, and the NDP is like, I mean, they don't really have a chance. I dislike the Conservatives (for the Americans - like the Republicans), even though I think they're a very practical choice financially, and all. But they're socially conservative as well as financially. And I take pride in Canada being socially progressive. Of standing up to the US and not bowing to their every whim by not going to Iraq, not agreeing to the missile shield, by legalizing same sex marriage, etc. It made me proud to be Canadian. we were setting ourselves apart in a good way. It's the social issues that give a country its global identity, not practical matters, and that identity is important to me. So i think that while the Conservatives will run the country well in technical terms, i fear for it socially, i fear us losing the identity i became so proud of.

the NDP and the Liberals, and of course, Green party (well, no Green party candidate in my riding. but you know) offer a socially progressive choice, but one's corrupt the others basically a lost cause, because it' essentially a 2 party race, despite the other choices, becuase only 2 really have a chance.

So back a loser, or back a winner I have serious issues with? and i live in Alberta, the second i say to anyone i'm thinking of voting anything but Conserative, all I get is some rant in return. my mother is just incredulous that i may not vote Conservative. So i come to you.

for more info on Canada and the elections, I reccomend the Canada Kicks Ass website... http://www.canadaka.net/ they have very nice concise party descriptions for all parties in the poll on the front page.
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Post by idsunki »

I don't know exactly how Canadian elections work, but I will give you my own personal justification for voting 'third party' (no, not Nader) in the last election.

First off, I live in Texas (America's Alberta). There is no possible way EVER that George W. Bush would not win his home state. He could have killed a man in Reno just to watch him die on public television and he still would have carried this state. Now, the Democrats made a better showing than I thought they would, but I fear that it is only going to cause a Republican backlash in the next few elections.

Secondly, these third parties will die off without any support, but with enough support, they can snowball into a legitimate threat eventually. This means one of two things - they will replace one of the parties (the fact that America's two parties are no longer Federalist and Anti-Federalist is proof of that), or one of the two main parties will pick up their main issues to gain votes from them (like the Democrat and Green party here, at least in 2000).

So, to conclude, I suggest voting for the NDP, especially if Canada has something similar to the US's federal matching funds if they do good enough. Where and for what is that former crackhead running? My British Empire professor gave us a news article at the end of last semester about one of the politicians running being a former crack addict (I think the headline was something like 'Snorting Victory'). Just wondering how that all turned out.
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Post by Saint Kurt »

I too have voted 3rd party in every presidential election but one since 1992.

The reason for this is that like Idsunki I recognise that without the recognition they gain from signifigant votes these parties will never go anywhere, and many of them have some good things to offer.

My voting record has been almost entirely Libertarian up until the past two presidential elections. I liked the Libertarian platform because like the republicans they were for a reduced government, but they were more left wing in their thinking about reforms of various laws (such as drug control) that weren't working in this country anyway.

The last 2 elections were different. When Bush ran against Gore in 2000, I could not with a clear conscious vote for either of them. I could have voted libertarian again, but Nader's Green Party had a solid platform and campaign so I voted for Nader. When I went to the polling place all these Gore supporters were shoving signs in our faces screaming "a vote for Nader is a vote against Gore!" Damn right it was. What was their point?

The next election was even harder and the Green Party wasn't even available on the ballot in my state. But I also thought Kerry might might be a good president. So for the first time ever, I voted for a bi-partisan candidate.

Not that it did much good, though it was a little gratifying to see Illinois as a tiny island of democrate voters in a sea of republicans and know that I'd played a part in it.

So you may not see your candidate win Jill, but at least you'll have voted for what you believe is the right choice.

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Post by Crocodile Hunter »

3rd party?
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Post by fourpawsonthefloor »

I am with you Jill. I've been having the same debate. There is no way I want Stephen Harper (conservative) as the PM. Even if you completely overlook the fact that they are so right winged that it is scary (he is our George Bush guys), and the fact that all the conservatives ever seem to be good at is badmouthing the liberals (never hear one positive word out of their mouths), there is still the fact that he is just plain creepy. Watched him pick up and hold a young girl the other day and it made the mother in me want to reach through the TV and snatch the child from his arms.

I was origionally going to vote liberal, even though the NDP is "my" party, just to try and prevent steven from coming into power, but I thought and thought about it and I just can't - I have to vote for who I truly feel is right. That is just me though.

One very good point that a lady made to me yesterday when I was having this exact conversation with her was that even if the conservatives get the minority government, at least the liberals and NDP are more closely aligned on issues and they should hopefully be able to block and of the major crappy stuff that the conservatives will want to do.

God save us...:D

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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

I was talking with my mom about it over Christmas and I was sort of surprised that she was considering the actual candidates we vote for, instead of which prime minister they're supporting. I think it was mostly due to two choices being crap, and one being hopeless. That's one way of doing it, I guess. I don't even know who's running in my area.

I'm voting NDP again. They are really pushing the NDP vote in Saskatoon, if lawn signs are any judge. The city's lawns are covered in NDP signs. Probably only... 20%? 10%? of people have lawn signs, but 99% of them are for NDP. It makes them look like a majority instead of a minority, which is actually quite clever. And possibly convincing to people who are waffling. I can hope.

But even if it was hopeless, I'd vote NDP. Because when you think about it, one vote does not matter. So you might as well stick it wherever you want.
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Post by Bamfette »

Yeah, almost no NDP signs here, it'a all Conservative...

I am feeling better about voting NDP. I jsut have to not say so around people here, because they just look at me like i'm insane. but i can't vote conservative, iut just goes against everything i value. if elected in they say they will vote on repealing same sex marriage, and other things. taking away rights. i find that very distasteful.
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Post by fourpawsonthefloor »

Originally posted by Bamfette
but i can't vote conservative, iut just goes against everything i value. if elected in they say they will vote on repealing same sex marriage, and other things. taking away rights. i find that very distasteful.
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Post by Saint Kurt »

Originally posted by Crocodile Hunter
3rd party?
The US is basically a two political party system: Republicans and Democrats. When we have an election there are candidates from many political parties, but the two main parties in opposition are the Republicans and the Democrats. No matter what happens, one of those parties will win.

When one chooses to vote outside of those two parties for one of the other political parties on the ballot they say they are "voting for a third party".

So when George W. Bush (republican) was running against Al Gore (democrat) in 2000, I voted for a "third party candidate": Ralph Nader who was with the "Green Party".

That was the election with all the ballot recounting in Florida. Hanging chads...

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Post by fourpawsonthefloor »

Good news - for me at least - according to the media, the NDP running for my area's MP position actually stands a fairly good chance of getting in (oh please oh please).
Send good thoughts his way!!!
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Bamfette
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Post by Bamfette »

Well, my candidate lost, but that's not really a surprise. Conservatives swept the province - again, not a surprise.

however, on the news, they say that in a lot of the rural communities the GREEN party came in second in many of the ridings. that surprised me. i think it shows how sharply divided Alberta is in terms of social/environmental issues. there are stark divisions, not much middle ground, but the conservatives have the numbers on their side. but it gives me hope that in time things will change...

anyway. looks like a Conservative government, but at least (so far) it looks like it will be a minority, so hopefully they will get voted down on issues like same sex marriage and the like.
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Post by fourpawsonthefloor »

I am so disapointed that I could run naked on the streets screaming, but I fear that would scar the neighbourhood for life.

Our conservative MP got re-elected, with the NDP just slightly behind her. GOSH DARN IT!!!!!!! You would learn new language if you were in my computer room right now. I have even made new ones up, because what I know doesn't cover my depth of feeling.

Well - I guess that is my little kick in the pants to start being more active in speaking up for what is important to me. Now's not the time to sit on my butt and moan about all the crap that they are going to try and shove through - now I must take a stand. I WILL NOT tolerate some of the party views, and I will not stand meekly by while they inact them (this does not mean that I will be perched on the grassy knoll with a rifle though). She says that she votes with what she hears the majority of our region wants - well then, she's going to hear from me and every person that I can drum up.

)(#@$*&Y@%(*&)#(&$)(@*&%)(&@#$)(*&@#%)(*&!!!!!!!

Man...I need a drink.

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Bamfette
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Post by Bamfette »

awww... that sucks :(

what's weird is, ok... every other day, I go swimming with my mom. gives us a chance to get caught up and whatnot. anyway, this being voting day and all, that was mostly the topic of discussion. she's got some seriously warped views of what the NDP stand for. I haven't been paying too much attention to what the Conservatives have been saying on TV, i admit, I get most of my infor from internet sites. but she was absolutely convinced the NDP were against gay marriage, always have been, and was convincedthe Conservatives were FOR it, for instance :?


anyway, if most Albertans who voted Conservative are under mistaken impressions like hers (and she's my mom so she pulled the age/experience card and wouldn't accept my claims to the contrary) it's not really a surprise... just to make SURE, I did go looking on the net, and i can find no evidence for this belief of hers, aside from ONE NDP MP who was upset that the party was voting FOR same sex marriage when it was voted on previously.... ( http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/09/05/ndpsamesex030905 )the other stuff was fiddly little details, and i haven't checked them yet, but that was a rather glaring error.


[Edited on 24/1/06 by Bamfette]
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Post by idsunki »

Sorry about that, Canadians!
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Post by chicory »

I'm so sorry for Canada too! No one deserves a George Bush. (At least with how progressive Canada is it should be hard to loss rights that you're accustomed to (I would think). Is/are gay marriage, health care, woman's rights in any danger?
Originally posted by Saint Kurt
The US is basically a two political party system: Republicans and Democrats. When we have an election there are candidates from many political parties, but the two main parties in opposition are the Republicans and the Democrats. No matter what happens, one of those parties will win.
Unless you come from the only state in the union with socialist leanings! (Texas's bizarro world twin) - then well - only city elections really I guess - but it's been between the Democrats and the Progressive party (for the last 20 years) and the Rebublicans don't have a chance (They're our Queen City's 3rd party).
So when George W. Bush (republican) was running against Al Gore (democrat) in 2000, I voted for a "third party candidate": Ralph Nader who was with the "Green Party".
3rd party candidates can also be thought of as 'spoiler candidates,' because having one in an election can give the victory to the man or woman who doesn't have the majority vote. (ex. 30% really dislike A and vote for C, 30% really dislike A and vote for B, A wins by 40% - even though in this (extreme) example 60% can't stand the guy/gal.) - It would make more sense if the president had to get more than 50%!

I can't understand why every :yell election isn't instant runoff voting!!! It's the only way that makes any sense!

Click here for an exciting and amusing flash game that shows how IRV works! Worth the click, I swear! (And don't press the green buttons after you get your ballot - because that makes you skip over parts!)
For those who believe, no explanation is neccessary. For those who do not, no explanation is possible. ~Gino Dalpiaz
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Post by Bamfette »

I'm so sorry for Canada too! No one deserves a George Bush. (At least with how progressive Canada is it should be hard to loss rights that you're accustomed to (I would think). Is/are gay marriage, health care, woman's rights in any danger?
Same sex marriage is (if he is true to his word) going to be put to an open vote amongst the MP's. luckily for us, he got a minority government, so the Liberals + the NDP (pro same sex marriage with a few exceptions) outnumber the conservatives, but there's also the Bloc to take into consideration, i am not sure how they would vote. but because it is a minority government, it has a good chance of staying the same. also at risk are abortion and right to die... our military will also be beefed up, and it focus will be turned away from peacekeeping...
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Post by Garble »

So escaping to Canada is no longer an option?

Bummer.

You guys didn't use Diebold voting machines did you?
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Post by chicory »

There's always the EU to run to...

I was just wondering, does Canada allow gay people in the military? There was just an article today about how many specialized personnel are forced out of the US army for no reason other than their orientation - and I wondered if Canada had a more tolerant policy.
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Post by Bamfette »

the military has actually organized and performed gay marriages for its soldiers, so yeah, they have been much more tolerant of gays than in the States....

and we will still probably be fairly progressive, overall. because it is a minority government, i don't think any really regressive policies will be able to pass. also, unlike the states which goes to the polls every 4 years, we don't necessarily have a set voting schedule, the current government could in theory last less than 2 years

[Edited on 27/1/06 by Bamfette]
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Post by fourpawsonthefloor »

I just read this article on the CBC news site:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national ... 60127.html

It scares me dreadfully. Its like they just want us to be clones of the US - because of course that is the RIGHT way to do things... :rolleyes
The pessimistic view was that Harper, lacking a parliamentary majority, can do little to make Canadians "adopt a more reasonable view of the United States" and abandon Marxist principles "such as same-sex marriage and abortion on demand," Weyrich says.
"Stand up for Canada???" MY #$$ "Stand up for domination of all, and intergration into the "american dream" is more like it.
(for all you non-canadians the slogan of the conservatives was "stand up for Canada).

Oh gosh, I need to go raid my chocolate stash.

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Post by chicory »

I don't think that the right to marry who you want to and the right to choose whether or not you want to go through with a pregnancy are radical, left-wing Marxist policies. I think they're pretty basic rights.

"Stand up for Canada" that sounds like the "Take back Vermont" signs that are still posted up around here. (Protesting the civil union law that was passed a long while back)
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Post by Bamfette »

oh, that story is scary... i don't want to be a US clone :( (no offense to Americans ;) but I am proud of Canada for having the guts of standing up to this 800 lb gorilla we have living beside us and being something DIFFERENT. And I don't dislike the American people, I dislike the current American government. big diference.) and MARXIST? that sounds like the US propoganda that gets bandied around when they talk about our health care system (seriously, though it has it's flaws like loooong wait times for less-than-life-threatening injuries/ailments, we have very good health care, and the taxes to support it are not unreasonable, especially when the time comes that you have to take advantage of it for something serious.) and as mentioned, gay marriage and abortion are not marxist principles, they are simple civil rights issues.

[Edited on 28/1/06 by Bamfette]
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Post by Northstars Love »

Originally posted by chicory
There's always the EU to run to...

I was just wondering, does Canada allow gay people in the military? There was just an article today about how many specialized personnel are forced out of the US army for no reason other than their orientation - and I wondered if Canada had a more tolerant policy.
Make no mistake they will change this secretly for the simple fact that the US military is spread thin. Don't believe what the Bush Administration tells you. The US military is in trouble. Recruiting is at an all time low. Gay and Lesbian military personnel will be allowed to serve when the government realizes they can't get any new recruits.

And let us not forget the draft. It doesn't matter if our government tells us there will be no draft there will be eventually. If our military is at an all time low in recruiting they need to replenish the troops by force (draft). If the US ends up going into Iran next because the Iranians are pursing nuclear weapons then we will be in big trouble because we don't have enough troops to send. There will have to be some sort of draft. Let us not forget the new Palestinian government being controled by Hamaas the terrorist group that has threatened to wipe Israel off the map. We will not negotiate with them so I fear we (US) will be in the Middle East for years to come.

As for the Conservative parties in the US and Canada it is their belief that they are on right track and everyone else is moving in the wrong direction. In the US, the religious right would like nothing more than to take away rights of gay and lesbian people. They call those rights "special rights" and they believe they reserve the right to deny housing, jobs and basic civil rights. They also strongly believe they have the right to publicly condemn gays and some secretly support violence to gays because it is supported by the bible. Sadly, some ministers have publicly have said gays should be stoned to death because the bible calls for it.

Scary? You bet!







[Edited on 1-28-2006 by Northstars Love]
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Post by fourpawsonthefloor »

Originally posted by HoodedMans Love

As for the Conservative parties in the US and Canada it is their belief that they are on right track and everyone else is moving in the wrong direction. In the US, the religious right would like nothing more than to take away rights of gay and lesbian people. They call those rights "special rights" and they believe they reserve the right to deny housing, jobs and basic civil rights. They also strongly believe they have the right to publicly condemn gays and some secretly support violence to gays because it is supported by the bible. Sadly, some ministers have publicly have said gays should be stoned to death because the bible calls for it.

Scary? You bet!
And yet there are other Christian groups that support gays. The following link goes to a "youth study guide" produced by a church that shows how God is an inclusive and kind God, not one that wants people to stone people to death because of the way that they are born.
http://www.soulforce.org/pdf/youthstudyguide.pdf

And another very good link that lists out all the arguements against gay marriage in a logical and easy to read format is at : http://www.bidstrup.com/marriage.htm

part of it reads:
Gay relationships are immoral. Says who? The Bible? Somehow, I always thought that freedom of religion implied the right to freedom from religion as well. The Bible has absolutely no standing in American law, as was made clear by the intent of the First Amendment (and as was very explicitly stated by the founding fathers in their first treaty, the Treaty of Tripoli, in 1791) and because it doesn't, no one has the right to impose rules anyone else simply because of something they percieve to be a moral injunction mandated by the Bible. Not all world religions have a problem with homosexuality; many sects of Buddhism, for example, celebrate gay relationships freely and would like to have the authority to make them legal marriages.
Paws

EDITED TO ADD a point I forgot to mention. Many may wonder why I have a firecracker up my butt about this issue - part of the reason is because I am in a bi-racial marriage, with children. It wasn't that long ago that people were kicking up the same amount of fuss about bi-racial marriages, and there are still many out there who think that they are "morally wrong". But most people don't even look twice. If we've come that far in 50 yrs, I imagine that in another 50, we as a society will be regarding gay marriage that way too.

From:
Yes, in 1958 bi racial couple Mildred Jeter and Richard Loving crossed the Virginia State lines to get married legally only to be arrested upon their return for violating a state ban on inter racial marriage. Upon their sentence and eventual banishment from the state the presiding judge an educated man, made loud and clear his opposition to the marriage and agreement with the law.

"Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."

It was only after several appeals and nine years later that the US Supreme Court made their ruling and inter-racial marriage laws were abolished in the 16 states that prohibited them.

Two years prior to the abolishment of inter-racial marriage prohibitions the majority spoke loudly against bi racial marriage as Gallup polls found that 42% of Northern whites and 72% of Southern whites opposed inter-racial marriage. Even today polling suggests that, 20% of Americans still believe that inter-racial marriage should be illegal.
I'm afraid that it is the folly of man to be this silly...no wonder when I was 8 yrs old I wanted to grow up to be a cat.

Paws

[Edited on 29/1/06 by fourpawsonthefloor]
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Post by fourpawsonthefloor »

Man - as soon as the election was over the corruptness just continued. So much for the conservatives "holier than thou art" attitude. I, being so lucky to have a conservative elected as an MP, am now stuck again with a woman who seems to only be capable of bitching, even though her government is now the one in power.

She promised. Promised. And campaigned on getting an airport runway extension. She's totally dropped the ball. City council is trying to work with her - and nothing. She sent them a letter saying "apply online here" and it wasn't even the right site. We need her to lobby for it, but its off of her radar the second that she was in.

Not to mention that the whole thing where the liberal MP crossed the floor RIGHT after the election to get a cabinet seat. She's was like the next day - oh that's in the past, no sense talking about the past when she will crab about the smallest things the liberals did AGES ago. She's a nut.

Vent over.

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