"Honk to Seal the Borders!" (The American Immigration Thread

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"Honk to Seal the Borders!" (The American Immigration Thread

Post by Crawler » Tue May 02, 2006 8:32 am

Here we go...I'm going to go ahead and throw some gasoline on this match and see what happens.

Originally published in the Washington Post
Many Americans have become enamored of the European approach to immigration -- perhaps without realizing it. Guest workers, penalties, sanctions and deportation are all a part of Europe's mode of dealing with immigrants. The results of this approach have been on display recently in France, where rioting migrant youths again burned cars last week. Across Europe one sees disaffected, alienated immigrants, ripe for radicalism. The immigrant communities deserve their fair share of blame for this, but there's a cycle at work. European societies exclude the immigrants, who become alienated and reject their societies.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01621.html
The title of this thread comes from a LiveJournal post that a friend of mine made. She saw three guys standing along the street with an American flag and a cardboard sign reading "Seal the Borders". She said she was tempted to honk (she didn't react quick enough) or even go stand with them.

Meanwhile, I'm cheering on the multiple marches to prevent this "reform" from happening.

We were immigrants once, with small exception.
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"Honk to Seal the Borders!" (The American Immigration Thread

Post by Saint Kurt » Tue May 02, 2006 1:13 pm

I think sometimes we find it too easy to think inside a vacuum with issues like these. We see a store filled with hispanic workers and say "Those immigrants are taking jobs from Americans!" How could we let this happen?

It's a knee jerk reaction that doesn't take into account great forces like the economy of this country and those of the rest of the world.

A similar type of example would be the rising cost of gas. It seems simple that as the price of gas goes up, something needs to be done. We (the U.S.) need to concentrate on alternative fuels, end our dependence on foreign oil, and do whatever we can to bring the price of fuel down. But is that really all? What about the rest of the world? Oil is a finite resource and no matter what the United States does, no matter how meticulously crafted a plan to cut back, there is no guarantee the rest of the world will follow.

And given that the U.S. is part of the rest of the world, a signifigant world wide oil shortage WILL have a devastating effect on the U.S. economy (as it will on the rest of the world). You can count on it. It won't matter if we're all driving electric cars by then, it will still haven an effect.

How does this relate to immigration? People are a finite resource too. And so are jobs. If you can't find people to fill the jobs, the work doesn't get done. It is a fact that there are certain jobs in this country (the U.S. again) that Americans won't do for the wages offered. Employers have a choice of paying more or not doing the work at all. Often it has been more profitable to not do the work at all and crops have been left rotting in the ground because there was no one to pick them.

As unfair as it may seem, the country needs all these "tiers" of workers. History has shown that when the U.S. has tightened its borders to immigration, both legal and illegal, the economy has suffered.

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"Honk to Seal the Borders!" (The American Immigration Thread

Post by NachtcGleiskette » Tue May 02, 2006 4:53 pm

This is one of those situations where I can kind of see both sides....but, at the same time...

Lets put it this way. My Grandfather came to America from Italy in the 20s-30s when he was a child, with his family. My Popi from Cuba. My great grandparents all came over from Ireland, Germany, England, Spain, etc.....discounting my small bit of Native American heritage (cherokee to be exact ;)), my family is less than a century old in this country. Maybe 110 years at most. So, I am an American citizen, but I am a citizen because of immigration. As is a HUGE percentage of this country...

I don't know what this means though. I don't think we should close the borders. I do think maybe stricter laws against illegals? I don't know really. And honestly, the jobs that they're grabbing are jobs that alot of us don't WANT. Maybe I'm generalizing a bit.....
"If you live your life to please everyone else, you will continue to feel frustrated and powerless. This is because what others want may not be good for you. You are not being mean when you say NO to unreasonable demands or when you express your ideas, feelings, and opinions, even if they differ from those of others.â€

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"Honk to Seal the Borders!" (The American Immigration Thread

Post by Northstars Love » Tue May 02, 2006 5:16 pm

The only reason why Americans will not do the jobs only illegal immigrants will do is because of the wages these corporations pay. On one news show an average meat cutter in a meat processing plant earned in the early 80's was $19.00 an hour while now that same job is now filled at $9.00 an hour. Most Americans will not do those jobs because of the low pay being offered. Give more money for these jobs and Americans will do the job.

Another cry from these demostrations is that they DEMAND legal citizenship, going over all those that are trying to come to America legally. They have no right to demand! Make no mistake there is a difference between legal and illegal immigration. Yes, this nation is built on immigrants but they came here legally, obeyed the laws, learned English and assimilated themselves into the American society. I am not for deportation but rather sending them to the back of the line and allow them to become citizens the legal way. Yes, we need the immigrant workforce but we should not bow to their demands either.

Yes, the big US corporations are to blame for many of the ills of what is happening in America by paying lower wages and employing illegals, but Mexico is the main contributor of this problem. In fact, the Mexican government decries the treatment of its citizens here in the US. Wait!!! Hold on a minute!! Why doesn't the Mexican government do more for its own people? Why is it America's responsiblity to help their economy? It is well known that many that work here send at least half their paychecks back to Mexico (living in LA for 33 years and working with Mexicans I know this is fact). How does this help the US economy? And why aren't the Mexicans protesting back in their country demanding reform? And what gives them the right to equate their "civil rights" struggle with the black civil rights struggle of the 60's? I know many within the black community infuriated at the very idea the protesters hijacked their struggle for their own. I also work with several hispanics that are angry at the idea of these protesters demanding anything. They came here years ago, applied for citizenship, and did what they had to do to become an American citizen. You will not find them waving their native country flags.

As a country of laws we have a right to say whom we allow in our country. We have a right to protect our borders and enforce those laws in our country. Here's a website I found about the Mexican constitution and how they treat their own legal and illegal immigrants. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1608703/posts

I understand they are trying to make a better life for themselves and the illegal flow extends beyond Mexican immigrants. But reality is the majority or illegals are from Mexico. I have good hispanic friends and wonderful Mexican aunts, so racism does not play a factor in this even though many that support these demostrations sadly would claim loudly I am one.



[Edited on 5-2-2006 by Northstars Love]

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"Honk to Seal the Borders!" (The American Immigration Thread

Post by Slarti » Tue May 02, 2006 5:19 pm

I tend to sympathize more with the immigrants, because, as already said, unless you’re an American Indian, ALL Americans are immigrants or descendents of them.

My family came here from England, Scotland, Ireland and France several generations back. My mother loves to bitch about immigrants -- because apparently since our family has been here since the Revolutionary War she thinks it makes her more American -- and whenever she sees anybody she deems foreign she gripes about it and says they should go back home to wherever they’re from.

I tell her if she feels that way about it, she should take her butt to England and see if they want her back.

The argument that the immigrants are taking jobs from good ol‘ red-blooded Americans annoys me too. Have you SEEN most of the jobs these illegals get? Yeah, I can really see Billy-Bob from Texarkana, full of good ol‘ red-blooded American self-entitlement, bent over picking berries in the 105-degree heat for 12 hours for five bucks an hour.

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"Honk to Seal the Borders!" (The American Immigration Thread

Post by idsunki » Wed May 03, 2006 6:28 am

Northstars Love hit it on the head for me. We are not Germany (said so because of their attitude toward allowing immigrants to gain citizenship, not because of any comparison to a former German regime), we actually have a legal way to gain citizenship here. Now, I've heard plenty of things about the test prospective immigrants take. If anything should be reformed, it should be the test. It should be pretty basic - Background/security check to make sure this isn't some violent crime offender or perhaps a terrorist or a drug dealer or any number of other things we really don't need any more of thank you, and a grasp of the English language.
That last comment would get me in trouble with a lot of these protesters, but hear me out. I know the stereotype of Americans only knowing English and refusing to learn any other language - I'm trying to buck that by learning ASL (American Sign Language, not a/s/l?) and German - but if I were going to live, or study, or work in another country where English was not the dominant language, I would learn said dominant language. Not only is this courteous, but it gives me a very important advantage over other 'foreigners' who never bothered to learn it.
To echo NL again, why not have these reforms in Mexico? Their president (Vicente Fox) basically said that he would do nothing to stop immigrants from crossing, and he has repeatedly spoken out against our country for our harsh treatment of them. I think the United States should accept these immigrants, but they have to put forth the effort to come here legally. It's possible, it happens every day.

To end with picking a nit, every human on the American continent is an immigrant if you go with the land bridge from Asia theory - even Native Americans. No matter how cool their artwork, history, and culture are, they crossed over too.

For more information on Native American history, artwork, and culture, read The Way to Rainy Mountain by N. Scott Momaday. Good stuff.
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"Honk to Seal the Borders!" (The American Immigration Thread

Post by fourpawsonthefloor » Wed May 03, 2006 2:53 pm

For me, being in Canada, I still here mutterings of discord over immigrants...but being on the west coast for me its asians. Now the odd thing that I have always found is that people don't seem to really stir up about all the people from europe, or other areas that come in.

That's what bugs the hell out of me - that I hear people muttering bad things about "all those chinese" that are going to come over and 'take over' the country. It seems so centered on race...

Not that I am saying that everyone that is in favor of closing borders or what not is racist, far from it. But I think that we'd be wrong to believe that race doesn't play a pretty big part on why these debates get so hot in the first place.

And the whole big corportation thing? Yes the top dogs always want to get richer at the expense of others...but I don't think that's so much the case with berry farmers and what not. The thing is that people demand cheap, easy to access food. All the farmers I know aren't living in 10 bedroom mansions eating caviar - they are busting thier hump for 12 hours a day. This in turn means they need a cheap labour force. Down on the BC coast you will see a lot of immigrants doing that work too. But I highly doubt that they are scooping THAT job from anyone...because that is hard, long, back breaking work for a pittance.

I guess I look at it more from an individual's stand point than I do from enmasse. I can see in my minds eye the young man who sneaks across the border, to get employment so that he can send back money to help his parents, wife and children, whomever...live. They aren't all drug dealing gang members - most of them are just desperate people...and I feel for them. I don't know what the permenant solution is, but crap.

I hate how I forget all the time exactly how good we have it. Look around at the world - look at all the children who don't get medical care, regular meals, an education. Look at all the women who have to live in daily fear for their lives, or being raped. Look at all the people dying of starvation or disease. And then we get mad that others may desire what we have? Why? Is it their fault that we were born into this blessed existance, and they weren't? Its just food for thought, that's all.

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"Honk to Seal the Borders!" (The American Immigration Thread

Post by LadyErin » Wed May 03, 2006 10:23 pm

Oh boy...

Ok, coming from a person who is trying to get back into school to get a degree to make it easier for me to move to Canada...

I speak English, I took French in high school. I can't write it well, I can read it, and I understand spoken much more than anything else. And I am brushin upon it - it's rusty. Also, I am making myself employible. *cough*I'm also going to be living with (possibly marrying) someone I already know. *cough*

I think if you are going to immigrate into a country - dont do it illeagally and do so making yourself valuible to that country.
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"Honk to Seal the Borders!" (The American Immigration Thread

Post by fourpawsonthefloor » Wed May 03, 2006 10:43 pm

Originally posted by LadyErin
Oh boy...

Ok, coming from a person who is trying to get back into school to get a degree to make it easier for me to move to Canada...

I think if you are going to immigrate into a country - dont do it illeagally and do so making yourself valuible to that country.
Well come on up! :D

Just to clarify, its not so much that I support illegal immigration, but that I think that its just a symptom of a larger disease - you need to cure that disease rather than just trying to cover up the symptom.

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"Honk to Seal the Borders!" (The American Immigration Thread

Post by LadyErin » Thu May 04, 2006 1:36 am

Originally posted by fourpawsonthefloor
Well come on up! :D
I'm trying!
Just to clarify, its not so much that I support illegal immigration, but that I think that its just a symptom of a larger disease - you need to cure that disease rather than just trying to cover up the symptom.

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I don't support it really - but I can understand it.
And I think your anaolgy more than fits.
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"Honk to Seal the Borders!" (The American Immigration Thread

Post by The Drastic Spastic » Fri May 05, 2006 4:24 pm

I don't know much about this, but aren't the people demanding citizenship just after welfare for the people in their households who don't work?

I support immigration, but I only want the people who MAKE AN EFFORT to be part of the country. Which means speaking English (or French) and getting some sort of job. I don't know about Eastern Canada, but on this side of the country there is no immigration problem as far as I'm concerned. Complaining about Asians? Insanity.

Living in Saskatchewan has given me a slanted view on the topic, I think. Immigration arguments always use the argument about how a small fraction of the people in North America are actually "native" and have the "right" to be here and blah blah blah. We have a huge "native" population and I'd trade them for immigrants any day.
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"Honk to Seal the Borders!" (The American Immigration Thread

Post by fourpawsonthefloor » Fri May 05, 2006 4:35 pm

Weeellll...that's a whole nother topic. I can get how obnoxious that some native protests and that can be - because its more about money (as it always is) but yet...they've been through A LOT. Not as much as the ones in the states were put through - but still - they were basically targeted for genocide multiple times.

What bothers me is "natives" who are mainly white sometimes being the main protesters...because how does that work? Your bloodline is more oppressor than oppressed.

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"Honk to Seal the Borders!" (The American Immigration Thread

Post by Northstars Love » Sat May 06, 2006 4:20 am

The problem with the pro-illegal immigration side is they have lumped all immigrants together, legal and illegal and basically told them all that other Americans (those born in the US) are against all immigration which is simply not true. What we are really saying is we are against illegal immigration. Those here illegally have no right to protest or demand anything. If other countries can say no to illegal immigration so can the States. No difference.

[Edited on 5-6-2006 by Northstars Love]

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"Honk to Seal the Borders!" (The American Immigration Thread

Post by LadyErin » Sat May 06, 2006 8:52 pm

Originally posted by HoodedMans Love
The problem with the pro-illegal immigration side is they have lumped all immigrants together, legal and illegal and basically told them all that other Americans (those born in the US) are against all immigration which is simply not true. What we are really saying is we are against illegal immigration. Those here illegally have no right to protest or demand anything. If other countries can say no to illegal immigration so can the States. No difference.

[Edited on 5-6-2006 by Northstars Love]
What he said.:worship

Seriously, Ken, well said.
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