Ordination of Women as Roman Catholic Priests

The place to go for debate on politics, religion, sex, and other tasty topics!
Saint Kurt
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2151
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 3:43 am
Title: Derelict Landlord
Location: Watch out for that cow pie!

Ordination of Women as Roman Catholic Priests

Post by Saint Kurt »

So here's something way controversial that I just heard about

Ordination of 12 woman priests

This article is about women who are being ordained as Roman Catholic priests in the present and past. These ordinations are done on boats because the sacrament is not valid and if done in a diocese will result in the immediate excommunication of the Bishop conferring the sacrament.

(It's important to realize that excommunication isn't something that happens to you, it's something you do to yourself. By performing the sacrament invalidly as such, the Bishop chooses to step outside the church and is thus excommunicated. It took me a while to figure this out...)

The argument for ordination of women is that other church doctrine has changed over time, so why can't this? Here's why:
Catechism 1577-1578, 1598
This sacrament can only be validly be received by a baptized man. The Church recognizes herself as bound by this choice made by the Lord Himself. No one can demand to receive the sacrament of Holy Orders, but must be judged suitable by the ministry by the authorities of the Church. (emphasis mine)
So that's the paraphrase from the catchism from the compendium. Basically with the sacraments you have 7 things that were instituted by Jesus and the Vatican says you can't argue with Jesus. The second part, about being judged suitable refers to a process called "formation" which men go through for years to prepare to enter seminary. They apply to the Diocese not to become priests, but for permission to be evaluated to apply to seminary. (Priests are fingerprinted, have an FBI file, and have a DCFS check run on them - the Diocese wants to know who they are accepting.)

Also note the Her/Him pronouns for the church and Jesus. This is to do with the ancient metaphor that the Church is the bride and Jesus is the Groom.

Still, even with all that there are lots of women who think Holy Orders should be open to them. A google search yeilds many sites.
http://www.womenpriests.org/index.asp
http://www.ocw.webcentral.com.au/
http://www.catholic-womens-ordination.org.uk/

All these groups seem to feel that the male priesthood is about power and oppression yet nothing I've ever experienced as a woman leads me to this conclusion. Perhaps it is because I came from Judaism where women really are oppressed or maybe these women have missed the idea that you can still have an active ministry outreach without being an ordained priest... I don't know.

It is interesting though. I had no idea so many women were being ordained.

-e
Image
Angelique
Dread Pirate
Dread Pirate
Posts: 2882
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:27 am
Location: sailing under the Jolly Wagner

Ordination of Women as Roman Catholic Priests

Post by Angelique »

I'm going to go out on a limb and say I think the permanent diaconate should be open to women. There is, after all, Biblical and historical precedent for women serving as deacons.

But the priesthood has been entirely male since the days of Solomon's Temple.

I think anyone who thinks the priesthood is about power has no business in the priesthood to begin with, male or female. And some of these ladies are effectively cutting off their noses to spite her face. One in particular had worked as a parish administrator, taught catechism and RCIA, and worked on a marriage tribunal. Now she can't because of a choice she made. Others are completing M Div's, then leaving the church to be ordained in other faiths.

Something tells me this isn't about their devout Catholic faith or their right to minister in the Church, but about their right to call themselves priests, even at the expense of their faith and ministries. Somehow, I think priorities like these do not suit anyone well for the ordained priesthood.

[Edited on 5/7/06 by Angelique]
Meddle not with the heartstrings of fans, for we are powerful and hold your pursestrings.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=6 ... &ref=share

www.heroesfallenstudiosinc.webs.com

http://hubpages.com/hub/characterdriven
HoodedMan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2335
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:39 pm
Title: Lord Sarcasmo von Snarkypants

Ordination of Women as Roman Catholic Priests

Post by HoodedMan »

How very interesting! I can't say I know as much about Catholicism as SK or Angelique of course, so I shan't even try. But I did like the interesting bit about the ordinations being done in the water. A DMZ, as it were...

Personally, I think the priesthood should be open to man and woman. I can't even say I disagree much that some men in the Catholic church would prefer to see men retain all the power. But my opinion is not relevant, nor is it valid. I am not a Catholic.

It's interesting to keep abreast of changes in religion. Thanks for the info!
ACHTUNG! Alles touristen und non-technischen looken peepers! Das computermachine ist nicht fuer gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitzensparken. Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen. Das rubbernecken sichtseeren keepen das cotten-pickenen hans in das pockets muss; relaxen und watchen das blinkenlichten.
Angelique
Dread Pirate
Dread Pirate
Posts: 2882
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:27 am
Location: sailing under the Jolly Wagner

Ordination of Women as Roman Catholic Priests

Post by Angelique »

But see, any man who thinks the priesthood is all about power is also sorely mistaken.

Besides, a lot of positions of real authority at least on the parish and even to some extent the dioscesan level can be filled by laity or women religious (aka, nuns) at least as easily as by ordained priests.

On the other hand, more power to those who have an honest desire to serve. And as SK and I already alluded to, there are myriads of opportunities to do so in the Catholic Church that do not require being an ordained priest.
Meddle not with the heartstrings of fans, for we are powerful and hold your pursestrings.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=6 ... &ref=share

www.heroesfallenstudiosinc.webs.com

http://hubpages.com/hub/characterdriven
Saint Kurt
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2151
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 3:43 am
Title: Derelict Landlord
Location: Watch out for that cow pie!

Ordination of Women as Roman Catholic Priests

Post by Saint Kurt »

Originally posted by HoodedMan
Personally, I think the priesthood should be open to man and woman. I can't even say I disagree much that some men in the Catholic church would prefer to see men retain all the power. But my opinion is not relevant, nor is it valid. I am not a Catholic.
Well, your opinion is valid. I think it's great to discuss these things and think about them, especially when it leads to understanding.

I think what happens is a lot of people apply logic to something that is not logical. It's easy to look in from the outside and think, "Well, I can't imagine that Jesus wouldn't have wanted female priests. He was such a nice guy. Surely Jesus wouldn't be against this." And that's all very logical sounding.

But it's not what Jesus said. He said men. He didn't say any type of food and drink, he said bread and wine when He instituted the eucharist. He didn't say any two people, he said bride and groom when He instituted marriage. He gave specific instructions.

One of the things I like most about Catholicism, probably THE thing that really drew me in is the seven sacraments. It's not like some random person said "here's some ideas I like, I'm going to base a religion on it". Catholics believe that these seven things were instituted by God - they are God's exact instructions and the church used those priniciples to base a religion on*. That's very very different. It means that there are seven things that cannot change. They aren't doctrine (laws), they're Sacraments.

And it's because they are sacraments that men will always be priests, communion is always bread and wine, and men will only marry women. You can't apply logic because God isn't logical.

-e


*If you don't believe in God or that God instituted the Sacraments then my whole point is moot and you automatically win the argument. If you don't believe in it, then it doesn't matter whether they were established by God or some random person. No matter what it's just a bunch of rules to follow in order to "get into heaven" to you.
Image
HoodedMan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2335
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:39 pm
Title: Lord Sarcasmo von Snarkypants

Ordination of Women as Roman Catholic Priests

Post by HoodedMan »

Well, I'd have to agree God isn't logical. Fortuna/God/the universe has a wicked sense of humour.

But basing an argument on translations of what he said just seems weak to me. Forgive me if I'm grasping at straws here, but in many languages the masculine pronoun is the default, as in English. Other people, I'm sure, know more about Aramaic and Greek and such than I do, but I think to base your argument on his exact words you'd have to go back to his exact words.

But I don't mind even if he noted all priests as masculine and if "bride and groom" were his exact words. My opinion's not based on his words, but on my own system of morals; that's why I said my opinion can't be valid. So I don't mind if I get shot down on this one. :)
ACHTUNG! Alles touristen und non-technischen looken peepers! Das computermachine ist nicht fuer gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitzensparken. Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen. Das rubbernecken sichtseeren keepen das cotten-pickenen hans in das pockets muss; relaxen und watchen das blinkenlichten.
Angelique
Dread Pirate
Dread Pirate
Posts: 2882
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:27 am
Location: sailing under the Jolly Wagner

Ordination of Women as Roman Catholic Priests

Post by Angelique »

It's not a matter of misinterpreting the use of a default pronoun, because when the Temple priesthood was established, Leviticus and Deuteronomy said specifically that men (rather than some pronoun that happened to be masculine) descended from Aaron would serve in the Tabernacle.

It is out of respect for this tidbit of Jewish history and the same tradition Jesus maintained and Catholics believe He fulfilled that I believe we should keep the priesthood male.
Meddle not with the heartstrings of fans, for we are powerful and hold your pursestrings.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=6 ... &ref=share

www.heroesfallenstudiosinc.webs.com

http://hubpages.com/hub/characterdriven
HoodedMan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2335
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:39 pm
Title: Lord Sarcasmo von Snarkypants

Ordination of Women as Roman Catholic Priests

Post by HoodedMan »

Ah. Well, good to know. I need to read the Bible again to refresh myself. So there you go. I still beg to differ, but what's new? It's the Catholic Church. :P
ACHTUNG! Alles touristen und non-technischen looken peepers! Das computermachine ist nicht fuer gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitzensparken. Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen. Das rubbernecken sichtseeren keepen das cotten-pickenen hans in das pockets muss; relaxen und watchen das blinkenlichten.
The Drastic Spastic
Swashbuckler
Swashbuckler
Posts: 1846
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 3:01 am
Location: ROK

Ordination of Women as Roman Catholic Priests

Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Originally posted by HoodedMan
Well, I'd have to agree God isn't logical. Fortuna/God/the universe has a wicked sense of humour.

But basing an argument on translations of what he said just seems weak to me. Forgive me if I'm grasping at straws here, but in many languages the masculine pronoun is the default, as in English. Other people, I'm sure, know more about Aramaic and Greek and such than I do, but I think to base your argument on his exact words you'd have to go back to his exact words.

But I don't mind even if he noted all priests as masculine and if "bride and groom" were his exact words. My opinion's not based on his words, but on my own system of morals; that's why I said my opinion can't be valid. So I don't mind if I get shot down on this one. :)
Considering Jesus never actually wrote anything down himself, even before you get to the translation part there is potential bias. There are no exact words of Jesus. All of the gospel is people going to his lectures and taking notes. If that. I'm dead certain none of them followed him around, writing everything down verbatim. Splitting hairs over pronouns is a joke.

But that's logic, and the Catholic Church will have none of that. And they shouldn't. Women becoming priests? Bad for the Church. Absolutely. No question. Once they start caving on that kind of vital policy, it's all over.

On a personal level the Church is good for many people. Spiritually, sure, whatever. Do what you want. The problem is that this is not only a personal religious issue, it's also very political. Which is where my interest in it comes in. Not at the religious level. It's the politics I care about. The priesthood as it is now is a symbol of... male power and oppression. It really doesn't matter if that's not what it actually is, because that is what it looks like, and that matters. It's a really big symbol. It is huge. Everything else has opened to women (in theory) but there's still that Church. It's the last big case of institutionalized discrimination. (In this part of the world, anyway.)

That is why women think they should get to be priests - because there is this idea that women can do whatever they want. I would never want be a priest, never, but I am really proud of the women who are trying.
Und die Sonne spricht zu mir
Angelique
Dread Pirate
Dread Pirate
Posts: 2882
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:27 am
Location: sailing under the Jolly Wagner

Ordination of Women as Roman Catholic Priests

Post by Angelique »

It only looks like discrimination to people who are unaware of the Church's real teachings on this matter and of the role of women within the Church both historically and currently.

Women don't have to be ordained priests to serve the Church, nor even to have positions of authority (well, more like crushing responsibility) at the parish or even dioscesan level. My mother, for instance, served briefly as pastoral associate for a parish while their pastor was recovering from a car accident. She basically did everything a priest would but say Mass and administer Sacraments. It was after that that she imparted to me her view on why women should not only not be in the priesthood, but why we women shouldn't even want it. It was something along the lines of "We've got more than enough on our plates as it is."

[Edited on 28/7/06 by Angelique]
Meddle not with the heartstrings of fans, for we are powerful and hold your pursestrings.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=6 ... &ref=share

www.heroesfallenstudiosinc.webs.com

http://hubpages.com/hub/characterdriven
HoodedMan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2335
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:39 pm
Title: Lord Sarcasmo von Snarkypants

Ordination of Women as Roman Catholic Priests

Post by HoodedMan »

I don't object to any of what you all have been saying except:
Originally posted by Angelique
It only looks like discrimination to people who are unaware of the Church's real teachings on this matter and of the role of women within the Church both historically and currently.
Nonsense. It looks like discrimination to me regardless of the Church's "real" teachings on this matter; I don't care what the teachings on this matter are or that it's been going on forever. The teachings are in my view discrimination. Period. So please don't try those smoke and mirrors.
ACHTUNG! Alles touristen und non-technischen looken peepers! Das computermachine ist nicht fuer gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitzensparken. Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen. Das rubbernecken sichtseeren keepen das cotten-pickenen hans in das pockets muss; relaxen und watchen das blinkenlichten.
Angelique
Dread Pirate
Dread Pirate
Posts: 2882
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:27 am
Location: sailing under the Jolly Wagner

Ordination of Women as Roman Catholic Priests

Post by Angelique »

I'm talking about the reasons why women aren't ordained priests. And you can't call the reasons discrimination if you neither know nor care what they are. Scratch below the surface, and you may find the reasons surprisingly egalitarian. Like what St. Paul said about the Church being many parts, but all one. Just because a woman can't be an ordained priest doesn't mean her role in the Church, whatever it may be, is any less important.
Meddle not with the heartstrings of fans, for we are powerful and hold your pursestrings.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=6 ... &ref=share

www.heroesfallenstudiosinc.webs.com

http://hubpages.com/hub/characterdriven
HoodedMan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2335
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:39 pm
Title: Lord Sarcasmo von Snarkypants

wtf? I just suck.

Post by HoodedMan »

What the hell? Somehow I managed to edit Angelique's post instead of replying myself; I rolled back the edit so all should be good now. Here's the post in question.

Edit: And then I managed to put it in its own thread. Seriously, wtf?
Originally posted by Angelique
And you can't call the reasons discrimination if you neither know nor care what they are.
Watch me. I just did and still do. I know what the Church's reasoning is; you've told me what it is, supposedly. But I certainly don't have to care. Are you telling me I have to know and care about peoples' reasoning for being racist? Or homophobic? I call it discrimination and I'm obviously going to disagree with those who say it isn't.

And there's not much that's going to change that, Angelique. All the reasons you spout at me aren't going to make a shred of difference if I disagree with them; if you say, "The Church won't allow women to become priests because ", I'm not going to just say, "Oh, OK, if that's the reason."

So we'll agree to disagree. I feel my point has been sufficiently made in this thread and my participation is no longer necessary.
ACHTUNG! Alles touristen und non-technischen looken peepers! Das computermachine ist nicht fuer gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitzensparken. Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen. Das rubbernecken sichtseeren keepen das cotten-pickenen hans in das pockets muss; relaxen und watchen das blinkenlichten.
Angelique
Dread Pirate
Dread Pirate
Posts: 2882
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:27 am
Location: sailing under the Jolly Wagner

Ordination of Women as Roman Catholic Priests

Post by Angelique »

I'm just saying that the Church's position on the matter is actually not sexist. You'd think I might know, as a female Catholic. What I find more sexist is the idea that we have to be exactly like men to acheive equality with them.

Not being allowed in the priesthood is not like being denied a promotion on account of gender, because the ordained priesthood is not a job. And the Church does indeed have ministry opportunities that are open only to women, too.
Meddle not with the heartstrings of fans, for we are powerful and hold your pursestrings.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=6 ... &ref=share

www.heroesfallenstudiosinc.webs.com

http://hubpages.com/hub/characterdriven
Zazou
Lubber
Lubber
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:28 am

Ordination of Women as Roman Catholic Priests

Post by Zazou »

Originally posted by Angelique
Scratch below the surface, and you may find the reasons surprisingly egalitarian. ... Just because a woman can't be an ordained priest doesn't mean her role in the Church, whatever it may be, is any less important.
Originally posted by Angelique
And the Church does indeed have ministry opportunities that are open only to women, too.
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. (Replace "a duck" with "discrimination".) The church's stance on this is inherently non-egalitarian. Regardless of whether you personally think the church makes up for it by having female-only positions (I'm thinking nuns --- what else is there?), treating each gender differently is, by definition, unequal. Equality is not about importance, it's about equality; they're very different concepts.
Originally posted by Angelique
You'd think I might know, as a female Catholic.
Um, personally, I wouldn't. You're making a rather bad fallacious appeal to authority here --- actually, you're not even claiming to be an authority, just a Catholic. Just because I'm a Briton doesn't mean I'm incapable of being wrong about Britain; just because I'm male doesn't mean I know all about men; etc.
Originally posted by Angelique
Not being allowed in the priesthood is not like being denied a promotion on account of gender, because the ordained priesthood is not a job.
The priesthood comes with authority and responsibility. So, the church is denying women authority they could otherwise be given if they were men. That doesn't sound much better than gender discrimination in the workplace to me. And I would disagree with you on the priesthood not being a job; while it is certainly much more to religious people, it is a job. Priests still get paid to do a specific task.
Angelique
Dread Pirate
Dread Pirate
Posts: 2882
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:27 am
Location: sailing under the Jolly Wagner

Ordination of Women as Roman Catholic Priests

Post by Angelique »

I think you are confusing equality with uniformity. It's not about being the same. It is about importance.

And it's not a fallacious appeal to authority. I'm a member of the very same group you claim is victim of a sexist policy. If I say I'm not being oppressed, who is anyone else to tell me I am?
Meddle not with the heartstrings of fans, for we are powerful and hold your pursestrings.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=6 ... &ref=share

www.heroesfallenstudiosinc.webs.com

http://hubpages.com/hub/characterdriven
Zazou
Lubber
Lubber
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:28 am

Ordination of Women as Roman Catholic Priests

Post by Zazou »

Originally posted by Angelique
I'm a member of the very same group you claim is victim of a sexist policy. If I say I'm not being oppressed, who is anyone else to tell me I am?
Forgive me for my rudeness and presumptuousness. I was unaware that you had been elected to speak on behalf of all Catholic women, as evidenced by your last post.

Had I known this, I would not have been so rude as to imply that other Catholic women/men could have different views on the subject.

You were elected, right?
taekwondodo
Deck Swabber
Deck Swabber
Posts: 505
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:55 pm
Contact:

Ordination of Women as Roman Catholic Priests

Post by taekwondodo »

Originally posted by Angelique
I think you are confusing equality with uniformity. It's not about being the same. It is about importance.

And it's not a fallacious appeal to authority. I'm a member of the very same group you claim is victim of a sexist policy. If I say I'm not being oppressed, who is anyone else to tell me I am?
You don't feel you're being oppressed because you don't feel a 'call' to the priesthood, Angelique. You're not being denied something you feel qualified and called to do because of your gender. There were (and still are) women who don't feel oppressed by gender discrimination because they have no desire to be anything other than housewives or mothers and think the uppity women complaining about not having an equal chance in corporate America or elsewhere are just whining and don't properly know and appreciate their place.

Not feeling opressed or discriminated against as a female Catholic does not make you an authority on the subject, it just makes you content with the status quo whether it happens to be discriminatory or not. Now you can state - quite accurately and fairly - that the Catholic Church is a private religious institution and is perfectly entitled to be as discriminatory in its practices as it likes and that those who don't like it are welcome to go elsewhere, but to claim it's not discriminatory just because you're not bothered by it...doesn't even begin to fly.
Saint Kurt
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2151
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 3:43 am
Title: Derelict Landlord
Location: Watch out for that cow pie!

Ordination of Women as Roman Catholic Priests

Post by Saint Kurt »

This reminder that all opinions are equally welcome at Nightscrawlers, while attacks on individuals are not is just a reminder right? (Nothing has happened yet, but you know how I hate closing threads. :))

Originally posted by Zazou
The priesthood comes with authority and responsibility. So, the church is denying women authority they could otherwise be given if they were men. That doesn't sound much better than gender discrimination in the workplace to me. And I would disagree with you on the priesthood not being a job; while it is certainly much more to religious people, it is a job. Priests still get paid to do a specific task.
This is very well put.

When I brought this topic up it was more out of a detached academic interest than any personal agenda (though I certainly did recognize it as controversial). As I said, theologically one of the most important aspects of Catholicism to me is the idea of the stability and infallibility behind the seven sacraments. That is what I choose to believe. I don't expect others to believe it (though I would hope other Catholics do since it very much forms the core on which the faith is built).

In the end, there really is no valid argument to limiting the priesthood to men only other than "because God said so".

I have often heard it said that religion is the "easy way out" - that one chooses to believe in God and follow the doctrines of a faith to simplify their lives and explain the ordinary and extraordinary events in it. I would disagree with this; to me faith is much more like a relationship. There is a constant push and pull as your beliefs are challenged and re-affirmed on an almost daily basis. If anything it adds a new level of complexity and richness to my life as I am constantly questioning and seeking answers.

As for my own process of coming to terms with this issue:

I talked earlier about the process of "formation", a very vital aspect of a priest's training. The role of formation is not just scholastic preparation, but a period of personal discovery in which a man ascertains if they have "what it takes" to devote their lives to the rigors of the role. I would go as far as saying that any priest who is ordained with the mistaken ideal that they are now in "power" and have an authority above that of women have had a very poor formation and do not deserve their ordination. In the same view I would suggest that any woman who feels a true call to ministry as a priest and goes through a proper formation, if she truly adheres to the sacraments, might ultimately decide that she must change denominations in order to fulfill that call.

My experience as a "Jewish Catholic" woman has been one of enrichment and service. I am an altar server and an extraordinary minister of holy communion ("EMHC") at my church - two things I really enjoy. In my synagogue I was only allowed to make "aliyah" to read the Haftorah portion once on my Bat Mitzvah. I have no regrets and I often feel lucky to have followed this path that is so like the ancient Jews in the New Testament.

-e

(BTW - that http://www.nizkor.org/ site is really cool. The amount of "bad scholorship" surrounding various aspects of the holocaust and WWII is really ridiculous to me. It's great to see a site dedicated to debunking it all.)
Image
Angelique
Dread Pirate
Dread Pirate
Posts: 2882
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:27 am
Location: sailing under the Jolly Wagner

Ordination of Women as Roman Catholic Priests

Post by Angelique »

I would go as far as saying that any priest who is ordained with the mistaken ideal that they are now in "power" and have an authority above that of women have had a very poor formation and do not deserve their ordination. In the same view I would suggest that any woman who feels a true call to ministry as a priest and goes through a proper formation, if she truly adheres to the sacraments, might ultimately decide that she must change denominations in order to fulfill that call.
Which begs the question I had first addressed about such a woman's priorities as a Catholic.

I think it's presumptuous to say that I feel the way I do because I never thought I'd like to be a priest. In fact, the idea that women could not become priests was one of the many reasons I left the Church. I felt a need to serve others, but wasn't quite clear on just how, and I felt slighted by the idea that guys had an option I didn't. Obviously when I returned, my perspective had changed somewhat. Okay, 180'ed, especially after spending a couple years studying to convert to Judaism and thereby deepening my respect for Catholic traditions I once dismissed as having no relevance.


It was a friend of mine in the priesthood who summed it up for me, when he was discussing the topic of celibacy. "Would I like it if the Church allowed priests to get married? Sure. Am I going to give up being Catholic just so I can have that option? Absolutely not. Here, we have both the Bible and the Sacraments. They are inspired and instituted by God and therefore more important than whatever else I may like."

Do I agree with everything the Church does? No. But the Bible and the Sacraments are more important than getting my way. I'm not interested in throwing out any babies with the bathwater. And I think Catholic women who give up their ministries within the Church or even give up being Catholic altogether just so they can become ordained clergy may be doing just that.

[Edited on 30/7/06 by Angelique]
Meddle not with the heartstrings of fans, for we are powerful and hold your pursestrings.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=6 ... &ref=share

www.heroesfallenstudiosinc.webs.com

http://hubpages.com/hub/characterdriven
Saint Kurt
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2151
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 3:43 am
Title: Derelict Landlord
Location: Watch out for that cow pie!

Ordination of Women as Roman Catholic Priests

Post by Saint Kurt »

So, I occasionally hang out with some other forum administrators. All of them run Catholic forums except for me and we have a fun time discussing all the weird administrative things we have to deal with. (I don't actually hang out at their forums though, it's kind of odd.) I am the sole "secular admin". Most of the time nothing comes of it other than, "yeah, that Da Vinci Code movie must have been a pain" or whatever, but they're posting interesting links lately.

Anyway... I didn't know this existed, but the Magisterium released an encyclical letter in 1976 about the ordination of women. (All them them are having raging "ordination of women" crises on their boards apparently since it's been in the news so much. Hooray for secularity!)

I thought the Encyclical actually addresses the point of "why this not a discriminatory practice to the Church" quite well (I'll quote it and then link to the whole thing because it's long):
Women who express a desire for the ministerial priesthood are doubtless motivated by the desire to serve Christ and the Church. And it is not surprising that, at a time when they are becoming more aware of the discriminations to which they have been subject, they should desire the ministerial priesthood itself. But it must not be forgotten that the priesthood does not form part of the rights of the individual, but stems from the economy of the mystery of Christ and the Church. The priestly office cannot become the goal of social advancement; no merely human progress of society or of the individual can of itself give access to it: it is of another order.

It therefore remains for us to meditate more deeply on the nature of the real equality of the baptized which is one of the great affirmations of Christianity: equality is in no way identity, for the Church is a differentiated body, in which each individual has his or her role. The roles are distinct, and must not be confused; they do not favour the superiority of some vis-a-vis the others, nor do they provide an excuse for jealousy; the only better gift, which can and must be desired, is love (cf. 1 Cor 12-13). The greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven are not the ministers but the saints.

The Church desires that Christian women should become fully aware of the greatness of their mission: today their role is of capital importance, both for the renewal and humanization of society and for the rediscovery by believers of the true face of the Church.
The emphasises are mine to point out that the church is clearly aware of 2 concerns and addresses them:

1. That the priesthood is based upon the supernatural and therefore not entirely equivalent to "a job" in which equal ability means equal opportunity. (So just as only bread and wine are the only things that can be consecrated (rather than say, a danish and orange juice) it is also supernaturally mandated that only a man can perform the consecration.)
2. That the priesthood is not a "reward" for holiness available only to one gender. The true rewards of holiness (heaven and sainthood) are equally available to everyone, men and women.

link: Inter Insigniores

Once again, this is the doctrine of organized religion so if you get into the idea of: well maybe the bible was mistranslated over the years or there were some masculine noun forms and you're not sure if you believe in all that transubstantiation stuff anyway... It's going to be irrelevant to you. But then, why do you care if women are Catholic priests anyway? I mean, if you're really dying to go to a Church service with women celebrants, go to an Episcopal Church. Or "Her Church". Or... Well, there are lots of options. :)

The only thing it might show you is that the Catholic Church has been aware of the public perception that an all male priesthood brings and has sought to create understanding for a long time. (but with little effect) For in a system of beliefs, that structure, those beliefs, are paramount.

It's a pretty interesting actually, but it's also long and ... Catholic. It's not exactly a beach novel.

-e
Image
psychonaut
Lubber
Lubber
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:44 am
Location: New Jersey

Ordination of Women as Roman Catholic Priests

Post by psychonaut »

As a life-long Catholic, I found this discussion very interesting. What an exceptional board this is!

I can see I have a lot to learn. I used to assume that women were not allowed to be priests because Jesus had only chosen male apostles. I thought that wasn't fair because Jesus, though he cared for men and women equally, didn't want to be known primarily as a feminist leader. Now I'm understanding it is more than just that.

For the past year and a half I've been attending the RCIA (classes for people wanting to become Catholics) at my church. Since my CCD classes ended in sixth grade, I got the basics but there is so much to learn, especially now that I'm in my early thirties and can understand things on a whole new level.

I've had a love/hate relationship with the Church at times... there were many times I was very tempted to change to a Protestant denomination (Salvation Army was perhaps the strongest, when I worked for them in Boston). At the same time, I seriously considered becoming a Sister for a few years. I think that is one thing that makes me feel so connected to Kurt, that he is going through so much of the same stuff... maybe not changing denominations, but the huge way that faith shapes his life.

Good reading all of your thoughts and comments.
fourpawsonthefloor
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 3958
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:49 pm
Title: Executive Administrator

Ordination of Women as Roman Catholic Priests

Post by fourpawsonthefloor »

Seems like benedict threw it down.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24878944/?GT1=43001

Choose your faith or your 'new fangled' ideas. You now aren't allowed to have both.
Image
I'm actually quite pleasant until I'm awake.
Love das flockige
Butt Monkey
Butt Monkey
Posts: 246
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:29 am
Location: The middle of nowhere
Contact:

Ordination of Women as Roman Catholic Priests

Post by Love das flockige »

Originally posted by fourpawsonthefloor
Seems like benedict threw it down.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24878944/?GT1=43001

Choose your faith or your 'new fangled' ideas. You now aren't allowed to have both.
Just saw that today.

As a Catholic, while the ordination of these women was against dogma, it is sad to see anyone excommunicated from the Church. Kind of a shock to me, actually- I've never heard of anyone from our time be excommunicated.

However, recently I've heard new research into the role of Mary Magdelene as an apostle of Christ, although her role in our Bible is limited. anyone heard of these theories?
Support Love's business, visit Kinosei: Plushies by MG

http://plushiesbymg.wordpress.com
fourpawsonthefloor
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 3958
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:49 pm
Title: Executive Administrator

Ordination of Women as Roman Catholic Priests

Post by fourpawsonthefloor »

I just found the excommunication as a fairly strong response. As well, several gospels were excluded from inclusion in the bible, including any written by women. I think just as with anything, that at the time of Christ, there was a definate bias against women and that spilt over into creating a patriarchal lean to it.

People are allowed to believe whatever they'd like, of course, however it is my belief that you have to take the society into the context when reading the bible - to me it is a matter of fact that the common viewpoints of the time would influence how the religion was created.
Image
I'm actually quite pleasant until I'm awake.
Post Reply