So did we like Uncanny 409?

Post by **Slarti** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 5:36 pm

I dunno. I think Casey went out with more of an 'eh' than a bang.

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I didn't like it so much. The Vanisher thing ended okay. I thought it was certainly a welcome departure from the X-Men's usual slash-and-burn style. But then of course they had to screw that up with the big fight in the restaurant.

I thought there were some good character moments for Warren and Bobby. And seeing Warren and Logan butt heads was interesting, and something that hadn't been brought up for a while. It seems Logan thinks the Elf should be in charge of the team. Good.

The big news, of course, is that there was NO big news. We still don't know what the hell happened with the SP. To me, that scene in the church served no purpose whatsoever. I'm sure he'll somehow be blamed for the death of the dude in the church though ... was he a Cardinal? I can't remember and my book's at home...

Of course the real shocker was that Kurt proclaims he's newly ordained. Soooo... now he's NOT a trainee priest, he IS a priest! :eek

:

So, in other words, I was not impressed. Thoughts, guys?

Panz · Post by **Panz** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 5:46 pm

While there was some interesting interactions...the entire Newly ordained crap has made me very upset and angry.
what rot!...dont get me started!

I was not impressed..I would like to see what Casey has to offer in the "HolyWar" thing, but he has NOT made me a happy reader.

Austen had better fix this . :mad

:

kurtlover · Post by **kurtlover** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 7:15 pm

no sh*t! he's a priest now! *it's giving me a heart attack* agh :o
agh ack!

BamfKat · Post by **BamfKat** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 8:30 pm

No I am unimpressed with this final issue. I am glad that Austen is taking over, from his other work I think he will do a wonderful job.

By Sarti
I didn't like it so much. The Vanisher thing ended okay. I thought it was certainly a welcome departure from the X-Men's usual slash-and-burn style. But then of course they had to screw that up with the big fight in the restaurant.

I hear ya there. A question How is smothering someone (by incasing them in ice) any better than slashing them? They are just as dead.

By Slarti
It seems Logan thinks the Elf should be in charge of the team. Good.

The big news, of course, is that there was NO big news. We still don't know what the hell happened with the SP. To me, that scene in the church served no purpose whatsoever. I'm sure he'll somehow be blamed for the death of the dude in the church though ... was he a Cardinal? I can't remember and my book's at home...

In this I agree with Logan. But then again Kurt has been rather squirely of late so :ick: ...

I had a feeling casey was not going to wrap up anything important. He is trying to sell his "Holy War" mini to Marvel. With his overall execution of stories I kinda hope he doesn't and Austen gets to fix it. :dead:

Yes the dude was a Cardinal (can't recall his name and my book is at home too...) Having Kurt taking the rap for that would be an interesting twist. I did like the fight scene in the Cathedral. Nighty was kickin' ass :evil

: Untill the CoH makes it's arbitrary appearance and toasts the Cardinal that is. :mad

:

The rest of it was OK. I like the alternative to whacking the bad guys... Even though we did that anyway. Wolverine and Kurt are sharing secrets from the others and I got the distinct impression it is them against the rest of this team. With Warren and his cabana-boy Bobby on the other side and Chamber & Stacy in the middle acting rather clueless.

BamfKat · Post by **BamfKat** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 8:42 pm

OK so I am not yet done...

Moment of thought and you will all be relieved. In Wolverine 173 (IIRC) Kurt says (I am paraphrasing here...) "My days as a man of the cloth are behind me..."

This places wolverine 173 after UXM 409 in continuity is all.

Also Austen has said that he would be dealing with Kurt's eclesiastical (sp) standing during his run. So we must all threaten him with the processed meat products that we love so much :lick

:

Post by **Slarti** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 8:54 pm

Originally posted by BamfKat
I hear ya there. A question How is smothering someone (by incasing them in ice) any better than slashing them? They are just as dead.

That was kinda ambigious. I would THINK freezing the Vanisher and his goons like that would have killed them, but Bobby mentioned shipping Vanisher off to the mansion, implying he was maybe still alive (a'la Dr. Evil), to me anyway. Maybe Bobby's the New Amazing Mutant Cryogenics Machine!

By BamfKat
Having Kurt taking the rap for that would be an interesting twist. I did like the fight scene in the Cathedral. Nighty was kickin' ass : Untill the CoH makes it's arbitrary appearance and toasts the Cardinal that is. :

I almost wish he DOES get blamed for that death. He had to have left his fingerprints all over, and that would be a great way for him to be thrown out of the priesthood. That would make him more unstable, and in a position where he's really on the wrong side of the law, which he's never really been before, aside from his association with the "terrorist" X-Men as a whole anyway.

It'd put him in a position to REALLY gun for the CoH, to clear his name AND find out the SP's "plans" for him. It's a bit cliched, but it could be done interestingly.

[i]By BamfKat
I got the distinct impression it is them against the rest of this team. With Warren and his cabana-boy Bobby on the other side and Chamber & Stacy in the middle acting rather clueless.

Yeah, me too. "Cabana boy" :laugh: That sums him up right now for sure. I'm sorry to see Stacy leaning more toward Warren than the other way though. Chamber was rather useless in this issue as well. We did see some nice interaction between Kurt and Logan though.

I've been assuming that apartment is Logan's. I'm sure Warren lives in his penthouse somewhere, but where's everyone else live? They're not at the mansion. So do they all share that apartment?:?

BamfKat · Post by **BamfKat** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 12:20 am

Originally posted by Slarti
That was kinda ambigious. I would THINK freezing the Vanisher and his goons like that would have killed them, but Bobby mentioned shipping Vanisher off to the mansion, implying he was maybe still alive (a'la Dr. Evil), to me anyway. Maybe Bobby's the New Amazing Mutant Cryogenics Machine!
[/i]

HEHEHE maybe. I think that he did something different to the vanisher that looked like cryogenic suspended animation. The others were diferent they were incased in ice... I would assume that would kill them but you never know.

Originally posted by Slarti
I almost wish he DOES get blamed for that death. He had to have left his fingerprints all over, and that would be a great way for him to be thrown out of the priesthood. That would make him more unstable, and in a position where he's really on the wrong side of the law, which he's never really been before, aside from his association with the "terrorist" X-Men as a whole anyway.

It'd put him in a position to REALLY gun for the CoH, to clear his name AND find out the SP's "plans" for him. It's a bit cliched, but it could be done interestingly.

Oh Yeahhh! that would be very cool. I knew there was a reason we shared a drape! :naughty

:

By Slarti
Yeah, me too. "Cabana boy" :laugh: That sums him up right now for sure. I'm sorry to see Stacy leaning more toward Warren than the other way though. Chamber was rather useless in this issue as well. We did see some nice interaction between Kurt and Logan though.

I've been assuming that apartment is Logan's. I'm sure Warren lives in his penthouse somewhere, but where's everyone else live? They're not at the mansion. So do they all share that apartment?:?

:laugh::laugh::laugh: Well I think Pandora came up with that term for Bobby some time ago and it sorta stuck in my brain.

I am uncertain about the rest of them but I think that Stacy is staying with Warren in that she checked with him before leaving on that last job. And well cabana-boy would be as well...

I think that Kurt is sleeping on Logan's couch (perhaps regularly). Jono seems pretty independant and may have his own kip somewhere.

Rex Luscus · Post by **Rex Luscus** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 1:31 am

I think Logan has always had his own little place in Manhattan, and Warren has always had his own BIG place in Manhattan. I got the impression that Kurt just kinda showed up (Logan seemed surprised to find him there) so I'd think that he, along with Bobby, Stacy and Jono, are all at least sleeping at the Institute, if nothing else.

I liked #408 better, but this one wasn't too bad. I still love the idea of Warren buying out the Vanisher -- that redeems the rest of Casey's ripped-off storylines (i.e. Mutant Massacre II etc.) for me. And clearly, the only purpose of that scene with Cardinal Hammond (?) was to reveal that the Supreme Pontiff has "plans" for Kurt, and possibly to get Kurt in trouble with the RC Church later on. But Austen may just forget about all that and leave it to dangle in the wind, along with all the other forgotten subplots.

I had mixed feelings about the last page. It was a panel-for-panel reproduction of the last page of #400, which COULD be a neat device, but I didn't understand why it was being done. Just to highlight the "here we are again" quality of Logan's and Kurt's conversation? That didn't seem like a big enough reason for such a bold choice.

-Rex

Rex Luscus · Post by **Rex Luscus** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 1:35 am

And one more thing ... forgive the consecutive posts ... did anyone else just want Logan to go over and cuddle Kurt when he found him in his apartment? :love

: Aw, the poor little thing! Comfort him, Logan! Do it!

-Rex

Crawler · Post by **Crawler** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 2:11 am

SLASH BAD!

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 3:02 am

ok i WAS rather dissapointed int eh 'recently ordained' bit, i admit that. and the fact it was not concluded, but if the Holy War mini/graphic novel (some debate as to which it will be) is greenlighted, it will be all better again. cause it's been set up so that Nighty will be the star of that.

but overall, i liked it. i liked last issue better, but this was still really good as far as i'm concerned. and i loved that bit where Kurt kissed Stacy :laugh: didja see her face afterwards?? hehehehe... she's smitten, no girl can resist his charms.

but then he basically took it all back, was all a show

makes this new character development kinda cool in that we can see his old self, but we know it's not what he's really feeling inside, it's frustrating....

little Blue Lucy · Post by **little Blue Lucy** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 4:54 am

So I think we are all pretty even on the whole ordained sitch. That's all I have to say!:)

Post by **Elwing** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 7:56 am

which leaves the question, what did Nighty do in those two weeks it took the Angel to buy out Porter? It seems he sort of suddenly returns in the end. Did he sleep on Wolvie's couch all that time? Did he help in the buy out anyway? Did the Nightcrawler miniseries happen in that period? Very odd.

Nandireya · Post by **Nandireya** » Sun Jul 21, 2002 1:11 am

He's ordained now? :eek

: How the hell can he be ordained? Did he get his Masters in Theology at Xavier's or what?

Sure...he may have the soul and, arguably, the temperment to be a priest...but there are certain educational requirments for the job! Or are the Catholic church so desperate for recruits they'll take anyone?

"Okay...he looks like a demon...he's woefully unqualified...but he's willing to do it..." :shame

:

"And he's got a nice, tight little..." :naughty

:

"Hey...don't give Leno and Conan any more material!" :ooh

:

Panz · Post by **Panz** » Sun Jul 21, 2002 2:44 am

Originally posted by Nandireya
He's ordained now? : How the hell can he be ordained? Did he get his Masters in Theology at Xavier's or what?

Sure...he may have the soul and, arguably, the temperment to be a priest...but there are certain educational requirments for the job! Or are the Catholic church so desperate for recruits they'll take anyone?

"Okay...he looks like a demon...he's woefully unqualified...but he's willing to do it..." :

"And he's got a nice, tight little..." :

"Hey...don't give Leno and Conan any more material!" :

You said it, sweetpea! :eek:

Betablue · Post by **Betablue** » Sun Jul 21, 2002 6:49 am

Speaking as a moderately--well, completely--non-practicing Catholic, I'd have to say, "No way on this planet or any other would the jolly old RCC take him." This is such utter horse hockey. I detest Marvel utterly for this.

I'm not saying this to deride any other religion, but honestly, the only people with whom Kurt'd stand a chance of practicing as a minister would be the Protestants. The Catholics are out for pretty guys who'll fill seats and collection plates for the greater glory of the treasure trove that is the Vatican. A denomination, say, that allows the ordination of women would consider a mutant--and if he's hiding that from his [nonexistent] parish, he's a liar and a fraud--not the Pope's boys' club.

I'm not religious. I consider myself an atheist at this point. But I was raised and confirmed Catholic, and I find Marvel's treatment of the Church contemptible. They haven't the guts, obviously, to address the horrifying real-world controversy that currently embroils the Catholic world, nosirree; instead, they're spewing out trash about shadow-Vaticans and demon popes and Catholic-makin' elves. Junk.

And, yes, there's the "education" aspect of Kurt's so-called priesthood. To sum up from the curricular requirements of the Catholic seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota: a bachelor's degree plus an extensive interview process plus two to four years of seminary. What, did he write away for his "ordination"? Where's his parish? When does he perform Mass or any of the other sacraments? When does he counsel people, oversee the parish Mardi Gras, coach the youth softball team, lead a retreat?

Quick answer: he doesn't. And he gets fired.

He's neither a priest nor an X-man right now. More accurately, they're trying to make him both; consequently he's neither.

I just can't believe that everyone at Quesada's 3-D House of Pancakes is too stupid to see it. No, whoops, wait: I can. Here's to firing all the script editors, numbnuts.

And what in the screaming toad pies is up with his STUPID POINTED HEAD? "Achy! I am a PRIEST now, Logan! Check out my uber-cool POPE HAT HAIR."

Ordained, huh? And the issue hits the recycle bin as Uncanny leaves the pull list....

mason · Post by **mason** » Sun Jul 21, 2002 5:43 pm

at the risk of becomeing incredably unpopuler, I like the fact he's become ordained (sp).

I dont know why I do, i'm theirs lots and lots of things that say it shouldn't have happened, but what can you do, I like it.

BamfKat · Post by **BamfKat** » Sun Jul 21, 2002 8:00 pm

It is not just that he is ordained it is the lack of any story, background, or realistic representation of that sort of acheivement that rankles so much. Sort of like if Bobby was suddenly a gynocologyst. :shocked

: Suddenly everyone has to call him Dr. Drake but he never had to leave, go to college and study or spend time as an intern... :o The only thing that qualifies him is an interest in females... :naughty

:

mason · Post by **mason** » Sun Jul 21, 2002 8:31 pm

Maybe he did the stuff he needed to do off panel, it was essentily said several times he was in training to be a Priest, he walked around with a collar on most of the time. Basicaly what i'm saying is we knew he was in training do we really need to see panels being filled up with him training taking time away from the actuil main storys.

Or it could have been dealt with by Kurt waveing goodbye and leaveing the titles all together while he was in training, to show his time away.

BamfKat · Post by **BamfKat** » Sun Jul 21, 2002 9:57 pm

Before I go any further I would like to say Welcome aboard to both Betablue and Mason.

Now on topic...

By Mason
Maybe he did the stuff he needed to do off panel, it was essentily said several times he was in training to be a Priest, he walked around with a collar on most of the time. Basicaly what i'm saying is we knew he was in training do we really need to see panels being filled up with him training taking time away from the actuil main storys.

I think the point is he would have had to say good-bye (just as Bobby would have had to in my example). The point is being a priest is a full time thing, just as Betablue, and many others, pointed out.

It would seems that the writers, editors and the other higher powers in Marvel didn't care to research the Catholic Church, and that Nightcrawler was stripped of all of his original personality and left to spout the occasional, canned ecclesiastical statment. There was no preamble, no reason and obviously, no research, into his Ordination as a Priest.

Kurt, prior to the whole eclesiastic thing, was an adventursome spirit ready to do the right thing for the right reasons, and do it with style! :bamf

: Once he joined the priesthood he was rather dull in a lot of ways.

While change is generally good, what purpose does making someone a cardboard cut out of a priest serve. Being a priest is a full time job how could Kurt stay a priest and still be a member of the X-men? And can you really see him taking confessions?

"Forgive me father for I beat up several people today."
"Ach, No worries I do that all the time..."
"Huh? You do?"
"Ja, but they deserved it; they were muggers (or drug dealers or slavers) who were asaulting this nice old lady... My only shame is one got away."
"Uhhh," The guy starts to sweat...
"As a matter of fact if I EVER catch that last one I would... Hey where are you going?" Kurt stops in surprise recognizing the retreating backside of the man. "It is YOU!"

BAMF! Pow, kick, gouge! "How dare..." Throw, crash! "...you assault..." Bamf! punch, kick, slam! "...that helpless..." Twist, pow, crunch! "...old lady!?" Kick!

Kurt stops and straitens his cassock...

I am not Catholic, nor even religious, but have seen many who are write that they feel insulted and angry over how this has been dealt with.

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Sun Jul 21, 2002 10:11 pm

I'm an athiest as well and i find it mildly insulting cause my grandparents were Catholic :p

but aside form the implauability of it all. (has no one brought up the fact he was raised by a sorceress? where'd he get the inclination to become catholic at all if the woman who raised him was anything but?) basically long story short, while as Mason proves, there are some who like it, the majority of people, especially diehard fans of the character, found Nightcrawler much MUCH more interesting when he was fun, light hearted and full of flair and style. Wolverine could kick 10 guys buts form here to next week in 5 seconds flat, but Nightcrawler would do it in STYLE!

and one other aspect of his personality i dearly love is his charm and way with the ladies. he could sweep any woman he chose off thier feet despite his apearance with a few sweet nothings whispered and a well timed kiss. he can't do that as a priest

ok so he kinda did with Stacy, but nothing will ever come of that, and she was a friend.

Panz · Post by **Panz** » Sun Jul 21, 2002 11:23 pm

How did he become catholic? Why does he not speak the Bayern dialect? or Rom, for that matter?...and tho' I love the fact that he has faith, he was never so religious that he wouldnt boink his own step-sis....

Everyone has a right to grow and change, but this is fiction, and the writers haave a responsibility to produce something worth reading, since the end of xcalibur, Kurt has consistantly been written duller and duller, more and more grim and religious...
if I wanted to listen to this crap, I'd go home to my Dad...Why ever does Marvy think that we want to read this trash? no wonder sales have slipped..entire generations of comic fans have joined the title, never knowing that Nightcrawler USED to have a personality. That is very sad. I plan to keep dragging the subject up until someone fixes this stupid situation. Poor Nighty needs some TLC from a writer, and I hope that Austen will give it to him.

I want the Intelligent, sweet, witty and charming guy back, I miss him so much.

:bamf

:

Garble · Post by **Garble** » Mon Jul 22, 2002 1:10 am

BamfKat, Bobby as a gynecologist is probably the perfect analogy as to why Kurt as a priest is wrong.

I think the best way to resolve all of the inconsistencies is to reveal that Kurt's gone wacky and the entire priesthood thing is just a delusion he's having. In fact, the entire Icon mini was one big hallucination....

kladyelf · Post by **kladyelf** » Mon Jul 22, 2002 3:28 am

Havent seen #409 yet, i live in a remote part of Australia, nevertheless ....
Speaking as a Christian (though not a Catholic one) i sort of agree with the "not priest" type of thing. The commitment would be too great to be both an X-Man and a priest simultaneously. Combine that with the fact that seminary etc. takes several *years,* and the fact that many x-men are forever stuck in their mid twenties.... for nighty to be at one moment a priest in training and the next confirmed! :eek

::shocked::eek: would be just about impossible.
And (I think someone else brought this up elsewhere - i forget who but thanks to whoever it was.) for this to happen would mean that he was studying to be a priest waaay back when he was leading Excalibur which would have been dishonest and hypocritical (remember Amanda - yowtch, remember Cerise?!?) which is rather against the whole point of Christianity (and i know Jesus - the whole reason Christianity was founded/exists - wouldn't have liked it!).

in a nutshell? I dont like the way theyre writing him, there's definitely room for improvement, nighty's priesthood is about as convincing as a rabbit-proof fence: it looks good but the little critters *burrow* and circumvent the whole thing anyway!
I wish they'd bring back Alan Davis or Warren Ellis (hey maybe both!) to write our fuzzy, they were actually good at it

(sniffles)

i want my fuzzy back!:) );)

BlueJubatus · Post by **BlueJubatus** » Mon Jul 22, 2002 4:14 am

I like the fact that he is religious, i think that it adds an interesting facet to his character -this is not to say that i dont like the non religious characters, i do, its just one of the many traits that have built up to make the characters more three dimentional- but i really dont like the whole suddenly ordained thing. Its not at all fitting and a little insulting and I really really dont like that they seem to have made absolutely no attempt to research the actual church or even the religion. They assume that just because the guy is a christian he has to be all somber and dull all the time. I mean, im a christian and Id like to think that im not a constant downer or completely dull- at least i hope im not

- In short -too late for that i guess;)- I miss him being happy and fun, but you all have already agreed to that i guess......im just gonna go over here now -humms quietly to herself-

Nightscrawlers