Nightcrawler/Religious & Spiritual Discussion

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Nightcrawler/Religious & Spiritual Discussion

Postby Wolvertique » Wed Dec 24, 2003 12:45 pm

Separation of church and state is best for both church and state. It's as simple as that. Churches are more likely to thrive when they're not just a tool of the government, being used to advance its purposes and not the faith they profess, and the government does better when it tries to govern, not dictate personal faith.

Also, as Lauren mentioned, lack of separation means that the majority makes sure that the minority has no voice. (No offense if you're part of the majority, of course.) That's bad for many reasons, not the least of which is that most Christians I know of want people to willingly and freely choose to follow their God, not be pressured into it because otherwise they have no rights.
Mystique: "How would you like to come see some really awful black velvet paintings of bullfighters?"
Wolverine: "What, no etchings?"
Mystique: "Just bullfighters...that's all they have on my motel room wall."
--Wolverine #51, "The Crunch Conundrum"

"Scott, everybody knows J-P would slap us all silly and make us little French speaking clones of him if he could." -- Bobby Drake
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Postby Lauren » Wed Dec 24, 2003 7:14 pm

Because that's exactly what happened in Afghanistan with Al Quadi, they forced people to belief what they wanted them to believe, and that made things a lot worse! We don't want to be like that or the Middle Ages where if you weren't Christian, you had to go to the ghetto. I mean, the ghetto was a rich place, but you couldn't LEAVE the ghetto! And when something bad happened, "blame the nonchristian!"
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"No, you see I'm blind in my right eye now... So boring. You know what really makes me pissy? Grunge, Heroine chic, and dying are over. I so hate being behind the curve. Tourism's up." Brett(Alan Cumming) from Urbania
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Postby Maelstrom » Wed Dec 24, 2003 7:46 pm

In the middle ages in Europe, the Jews were *only* allowed to lend money (known as usery). They got in serious trouble if they had any other jobs. The interpretation of the Catholic faith, at the time, forbade charging interest on a loan, and in that case, why lend money at all? Judaism, however, still allowed one to charge interest (so long as it wasn't injurious or outrageous). The Jews were the moneylenders and financiers. And they were a persecuted minority...

I'm sure you can see where this is leading.... :evil

Yup: whenever you wanted to default on a loan, just go to your local Priest and tell them that that nasty 'ol Jew over there is eating meat on a Friday. He gets killed for Heresy, and your debt also goes up in smoke. Very convenient. The barons, dukes, and kings did this way too many times....

Invariably, when politics, greed, and other worldy things get involved, the most peaceful of religions can turn into an oppresive nightmare. Christianity reveres and worships one who let Himself be tortured to death, rather than fight back! You can't get more pacifistic than that! And yet, how many atrocities have happened in His name? More than I want to count. This isn't a swipe at religion in general, or Christianity in particular: it's a swipe at mankind's general habit of twisting things to fit one's personal desires.

Originally posted by spinifex
I've gotten into a few discussions with street preachers with this, and when they bring up the 'faith alone' point, I mention that doing good deeds in God's name certainly doesn't hurt now, does it? They never have an answer for that.


I can go you one better, hun :evil :

When I was in college, a pair of fundlet whack-jobs came and "preached" in the courtyard to anyone within earshot. I put "preach" in quotes because it was more of a harangue with Biblical notation than a sermon. They were so busy calling everyone a whore and a whoremonger that I doubt anyone who wasn't in dire need of a dominatrix would listen to them. (I felt so sorry for the local Saltworks group, kind of a Campus Crusade for Christ outfit. They were such sweethearts, and this made them look so bad....:urg) I argued with them (like so many others). I asked, "Why should we be so terrified of a God who loves us?"

Their response? "NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THAT GOD LOVES US!"

Excuse me? :?

"He so loved the world that He gave us His only begotten Son"?

"God loves the sinner, but hates the sin"?

Are we even reading the same book??? :shakeno
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Postby Lauren » Wed Dec 24, 2003 8:49 pm

Wait... that just blew my mind...I need to reboot my brain for a minute hold on...

Ok, that was just so stupid! did you smack 'em after that? I would most likely smacked 'em. i have this thing where when people get frustrating like that, I smack 'em really hard in the face! you should try it, it's fun!

Anyway, there have been a lot of problems when it comes to people screwing over other people and disguising it. We've had Popes that have declared wars just for the money! Heck, the Black Plague was blamed on the Jews! what's going on people? It's like there's this secret memo that went around that said when all else fails, blame the Jew!
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Postby taekwondodo » Thu Dec 25, 2003 1:08 am

Actually, Medieval Jews were allowed to follow other trades than money-lending, it was just that their status as bankers was pretty much the only reason their presence was tolerated. There were Jewish merchants and tradesmen - I know specifically that they fairly commonly were found as traders in cloths and dyes and as jewelers of various types.

Talking about religion being used to justify atrocities - you've got to love the Crusades. The Church got tired of 'good Christians' slaughtering each other for fun and money so they preached Crusades. Got truces between warring European factions, got rid of a bunch of younger sons whose only business was making trouble and provided an excuse to ship out large numbers of the 'useless common folk'. Bonus, they could make war on the filthy Moors and retake the Holy Land if they were lucky. Pretty much the same deal as al Qaida gives these days - kill the non-believer or die trying and go directly to Heaven, do not pass go, do not collect $200. And if you live and are victorious there's the added bonus of robbing, raping and pillaging with the Church's blessing.

Basically, almost any religion can be perverted and twisted to justify atrocities - modern Islamic extremists sure don't have a corner on the market (nor do the Christian fundies).
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Postby Lauren » Thu Dec 25, 2003 4:01 am

It's really sad that all of these religions that are supposed to be extremely peaceful get twisted by a few crazies and it makes the whole group look bad! there are even Hindu Extremists! I think it was a Hindu Extremist who shot Gandhi because he was nice to Muslims or something like that!

The only group that doesn't go insane are the Buddhists! They should get an award for that! Everyone applaud the Buddhists! Yay Buddha!
"I am known as Valentinez Alkalinella Xifax Sicidabohertz Gombigobilla Blue Stradivari Talentrent Pierre Andri Charton-Haymoss Ivanovici Baldeus George Doitzel Kaiser III. Don't hesitate to call." -Vash the Stampede


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Postby Wolvertique » Thu Dec 25, 2003 5:54 am

I like Buddhists. Just a little sprinkle of garlic salt, and voila! :)

Oops, did I say that out loud? :LOL

Yes, fundie ignorance can be entertaining. A local Pagan I know was once accosted by a pair of them, who asked him what religion he was. He pulled out his pentacle, a five pointed star in a circle. Apparently they confused it with the six pointed Star of David, for they looked at each other, smiled, and said, "Oh, so you're Jewish!"

So sometimes we local Pagans say we're Jewish.
Mystique: "How would you like to come see some really awful black velvet paintings of bullfighters?"
Wolverine: "What, no etchings?"
Mystique: "Just bullfighters...that's all they have on my motel room wall."
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Postby Lauren » Thu Dec 25, 2003 5:48 pm

That's so awesome! But didn't they see it only had five stars and not six? i used to get confused, but I figured it out later on.
"I am known as Valentinez Alkalinella Xifax Sicidabohertz Gombigobilla Blue Stradivari Talentrent Pierre Andri Charton-Haymoss Ivanovici Baldeus George Doitzel Kaiser III. Don't hesitate to call." -Vash the Stampede


"No, you see I'm blind in my right eye now... So boring. You know what really makes me pissy? Grunge, Heroine chic, and dying are over. I so hate being behind the curve. Tourism's up." Brett(Alan Cumming) from Urbania
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Postby Wolvertique » Thu Dec 25, 2003 9:04 pm

::shrug:: I don't know if they just assumed a star had to be Jewish or what. I just know that it was funny...
Mystique: "How would you like to come see some really awful black velvet paintings of bullfighters?"
Wolverine: "What, no etchings?"
Mystique: "Just bullfighters...that's all they have on my motel room wall."
--Wolverine #51, "The Crunch Conundrum"

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Postby Maelstrom » Thu Dec 25, 2003 11:33 pm

Originally posted by Wolvertique
Yes, fundie ignorance can be entertaining. A local Pagan I know was once accosted by a pair of them, who asked him what religion he was. He pulled out his pentacle, a five pointed star in a circle. Apparently they confused it with the six pointed Star of David, for they looked at each other, smiled, and said, "Oh, so you're Jewish!"

So sometimes we local Pagans say we're Jewish.


:*D:*DBWAAAHAHAHAHA!!!! :*D Oh, Lord, that's hysterical! Can't tell the difference between Solomon's Seal and the Star of David?? I swear....

Of course, if you want to hear what happens when stupid people try to out-think zealots, here's one for you. Yes, this really happened. I personally knew both guys involved, Scott and Alan (who, at this time, were both in their mid to late teens).

Alan was telling Scott how tired he was of the Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on doors with the Watchtower. (Their block was some kind of magnet for Witnesses.) So Alan got the brilliant, inventive idea that he'd tell them he was a Satanist and scare them off. Scott could smell trouble, and warned Alan that this was not the brilliant, inventive idea he thought it was. Undaunted, Alan was determined to see his plot through. He didn't even wait for the JWs to get to their side of the street. He went to the door, opened it, and shouted "Hey! I'm a Satanist!"

The JWs came to his door calmly. Scott stood back and watched. Here was the approximate conversation:

JWs: You said you were a Satanist?

Alan: Yeah!

Scott: (silently, in the back corner) :doh!

JWs: What do you mean by that?

Alan: (pause) Well, I'm a Satanist! I believe in Satan!

JWs: Well, we do too. We just believe that our Lord and Savior, Jesus, is far more powerful than Satan....

.... This went on for quite some time.

The JWs, as Scott predicted, were SO used to this little ploy that they were quite ready for it, and had their spiel all worked out. After about half an hour, poor Alan mumbled that he had seen the error of his ways, begged to be let go to use the bathroom, and took a Watchtower just to get them off his doorstep.

Scott couldn't stop laughing for ten minutes. :evil


However, sometimes the "Satanist" ploy does work. Case in point:

I knew a friend (neither Scott, nor Alan) who once rented a single apartment for incredibly cheap. Why was it so cheap? Because the Satanic, incredibly STUPID, tenant before had burned a pentagram into the hardwood floor! Not surprisingly, the landlord was having a hard time renting it out, but my friend didn't care. He shrugged, kicked a rug over it, and basked in the glory of paying half the rent he expected.

One day a JW came to his door. This was one of the stereotypical, foot in the door kinds who just wouldn't leave until you were converted. So my friend went to a bookcase, picked out some random book with a black cover, kicked the rug off the pentagram, sat in the middle, opened the book, and said, "I'll match you verse-for-verse".

The poor bastard practically left skid marks. :shocked
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Postby Lauren » Fri Dec 26, 2003 3:58 am

that is sooo cool! But my dad used to actually study religion, and we once had Jws for neighbors. They constantly came over and my dad would have discussions with them. One day, my dad says we believe in the Holy trinity, and they freaked and said it was all evil and a lie.

They never came over since.
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"No, you see I'm blind in my right eye now... So boring. You know what really makes me pissy? Grunge, Heroine chic, and dying are over. I so hate being behind the curve. Tourism's up." Brett(Alan Cumming) from Urbania
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Postby thylacine » Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:33 pm

I hope everyone had a nice holiday... ! My Buick got rear ended, so I didn't.

Anyway... If people want my opinions on church & state... yeah, the church should not run the state & vice versa, but the state should not ban religious expression either. Like, locally a town would not let a rabbi put up a menorah in public view. That is really wrong, I think.

Also, with regard to violence in the name of religion, I don't think it's a religion problem, I think it's a people problem. People are violent and use beliefs as an excuse. Sad, ain't it?

Yeah... my uncle is a Jehovah's Witness, and he dumped the rest of the family and won't speak to us anymore. We were so good to him. That kills me.

Fundamentalists amuse some people and annoy others. I always get along with them myself, since they don't swear or steal or whatever (they're not supposed to anyway!). I just don't like it when they say Catholics will go to hell.

It's interesting to see how people have been saying that Nightcrawler is an inspiration to them. It's fascinating to see how a fictional character can have such an effect on people!
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Postby rockstar » Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:59 pm

He may be fictional, but we all wish he were real.
If a man who looks like a demon can be so faithful to God, why can't we? God seems to help Kurt (even though Kurt goes through a lot). God helps a man who looks as different and as demonic as Kurt does. It helps me to remember that God love us no matter what, and He can help us with our problems.
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Postby Lauren » Sat Dec 27, 2003 2:58 am

Yeah, despite the fact that God made Kurt look the way he does, Kurt has strong faith in Him despite all of the issues he's been through, especially the one where mutants were being tortured in a church. It must have taken a lot to still believe after that happened.
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"No, you see I'm blind in my right eye now... So boring. You know what really makes me pissy? Grunge, Heroine chic, and dying are over. I so hate being behind the curve. Tourism's up." Brett(Alan Cumming) from Urbania
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Postby Northstars Love » Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:19 pm

Originally posted by thylacine
I hope everyone had a nice holiday... ! My Buick got rear ended, so I didn't.


Sorry to hear that. Hope everyone is ok.


Also, with regard to violence in the name of religion, I don't think it's a religion problem, I think it's a people problem. People are violent and use beliefs as an excuse. Sad, ain't it?


True. It is unfortunate that people use the bible for all sorts of violence. Including discrimination against certain people for who they are. And some of these people that quote the bible are not Christians! But they feel it's a good reference guide to support their distorted beliefs of discrimination.


Yeah... my uncle is a Jehovah's Witness, and he dumped the rest of the family and won't speak to us anymore. We were so good to him. That kills me.


The Witnesses believe the basic doctrine of the Trinity is a devil made belief. So they discarded the basic tenet of most Christian denominations. Hell, even the Protestants that broke away from the Catholic Church believe in the Holy Trinity. But certain faiths excommunicate family members and friends if they are not part of their religious faith.

Fundamentalists amuse some people and annoy others. I always get along with them myself, since they don't swear or steal or whatever (they're not supposed to anyway!). I just don't like it when they say Catholics will go to hell.


I find the Fundamentalists faith to be anti-everything. I don't even believe in their doctrine of the Rapture. I find that belief to go against the belief of the Second Coming. They also forget the scripture which calls for us not to judge lest we be judged by the same measure. Catholics won't go to Hell. Fundies are under the misguided belief that they are right and everybody else is wrong. And Pride is one of the 7 deadly sins. Someone should remind them.

It's interesting to see how people have been saying that Nightcrawler is an inspiration to them. It's fascinating to see how a fictional character can have such an effect on people!


Yes it is. Nightcrawler, despite all the ridicule and hate he experiences in his daily life still holds to his faith in God. Never once asking-at least not as of yet in the movies-"God. Why have you made me this way?"
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Postby Bamf Bunny » Sat Dec 27, 2003 8:43 pm

Originally posted by Lauren
Because that's exactly what happened in Afghanistan with Al Quadi, they forced people to belief what they wanted them to believe [...]

You're thinking of the Taliban, the religious government that ruled Afghanistan before the second Gulf War. Al-Qaeda is a terrorist organization, not a government.
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Postby BamfChyck » Sun Dec 28, 2003 1:58 am

I'm not here to clobber you, dear. I don't agree with you, and I would encourage you to pray about this. I pray about it every day. If you're really curious, you might want to research it with some. Two of my favorite books about this are "Religion Is A Queer Thing" by Elizabbeth Stuart and "Homosexuality And The Christian Faith" by Walter Wink.

I don't think it's in the bible that gays are going to hell. I believe that the verses that are used to support that arguement have been distorted and misused to the extent that they are no longer true to their original meaning, literally or otherwise.

I don't think it says homosexuality is a sin, either. I could go over this verse by verse, if you want.

I've got very strong discernment. It is currently my strongest spiritual gift, and since I was a little girl, Jesus has led me to fight the homophobic misuse of the bible. This is an issue very close to me, and I just weep when I hear people spewing such hate in Christ's name.

As far as all the queers going to hell--it's God's idea of redemption here that counts. Not mine, not yours. And ultimately, it's His redemption that will affect us all.
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Postby Bamf Bunny » Sun Dec 28, 2003 2:03 am

Angel of the Night, I've deleted your post because I believe it goes beyond the respect called for in the rules. Religion is a topic where it will not be possible for everyone to agree, but flat-out declaring that anyone is going to hell is not acceptable here.
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Postby Lauren » Sun Dec 28, 2003 3:38 am

Whoops...boy do I feel kinda foolish now.. Well... the Taliban and Al Quadi were both BAD anyway so *Meh*

I'm kidding I'm kidding, Thank you for pointing out my mistake.

But it really gets me how people claim certain things just because it's in the bible, like the homosexual thing.

Who wrote the bible? People
Who translated it? People
Who spreads it around? People
Well, I think we've all pointed out that it is PEOPLE who screw up everything really. Who cares if it's in the bible, some of those things must be wrong because of one thing; people wrote it. I could easily write a book and put what I want in it, but does that make it true? No, so really people can't always use the bible to back their words that much!
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Postby Salinea » Sun Dec 28, 2003 9:01 am

I agree with you. People aren't perfect so they shouldn't claim that the writing in the bible is faultless. The only problem with trying to disproove the fautlessness of the bible is that you will have others who say that the bible was utterly and completely inspired by god so none of it can be wrong or slightly mistaken. There's the problem :(

I'm not exactly an agnostic but I don't believe in institutionlized religions because in every one I found some sort of problem with it..well..except for buddism (haven't really known that many Buddist people). I go to a Catholic high school because it offers a very good education despite the mandatory religion class. However, I've pretty much lost my faith in Christianity and other religions because of what I've learned and seen at my school. I have met many a truly hypocritical Catholic and many honest and good Catholics. The hypocrits hide behind their religion which has decent and moral goals but they take advantage of the name and the ideas behind it to defend there not-so-good beliefs or actions.

One of my religion teachers was a real goody-goody kind of person. She always smiled and always seemed nice but she was VERY biased. She would give less than deserving grades to people who didn't believe exactly as she did or have opinions just like hers. We had a section on abortion and had to write papers. This was supposed to be an open opinion paper but the only girl who wrote pro-choice was denied a grade on her paper until she was forced to after the parents spoke to the principal. Still, she gave the girl a low grade.

People like that have made me lose my faith but one of my very good friends is a devout Catholic and another is Jewish. The former is very involved in the religious activities we have at our school and I respect her and the other for their devotion to faith but I don't think I'm changing any time soon.

I've seen the problems with religions because many people have a lack of respect for other religions. Essentially, each religion is like a different interpretation of the same thing. God presented itself to different cultures in different ways but many refuse to see that. Human imperfection drives the majority of people to seek a way to make themselves better than someone else. All in all it's a sad predicament. :(
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Postby Northstars Love » Sun Dec 28, 2003 9:47 am

Angel, you need to understand that all people are different. And that includes gay people. There are many within the gay community that are very strong believers in God and Christ. Are we to assume that whatever they do to profess their faith will mean zip when they die? Did Christ not say that it is through faith that we are saved?

I'm a firm believer that my salvation comes from Christ's death on Calvary. And that he rose again on the third day and ascended into Heaven. I do not believe that a church or minister has the authority to say who is and who isn't going to Heaven. That judgement is left up to God. And to God alone. It is a personal relationship between Christ and myself. Not any church. Not any other person.

Man is inherently corrupt and sinful according to the Christian faith. I cannot trust in man to save me. That includes ministers, priests and rabbis. They are sinfull just as you and I. That is why I put my trust and faith in Christ to save me from my sins. And it is he that gives the strength to endure the hateful ridicule and condemnation from my other brothers and sisters in Christ because of who I am.

I don't hate or wish ill will to those that hate or disagree with me. Only pray that God enlightens them to understand the plight of their gay brothers and sisters. We have a common goal Angel and that is to help others to Christ. Let us work together to achieve this goal instead of making it pull us apart because of our temporary earthly differences.
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Nightcrawler/Religious & Spiritual Discussion

Postby Maelstrom » Sun Dec 28, 2003 9:19 pm

An interesting tidbit of information. I can't vouch for the universal acceptability of it, as this kind of stuff gets debated endlessly and without resolution, but I thought I'd post it here, since apparently someone brought it up. (I didn't get to see the "errant post" before it was deleted....)

Some scholars have hypothesized that the "never commit homosexuality" phrasing is a corruption of "never commit sodomy". The ancient term "sodomizing" didn't refer to all forms of anal sex. Sodomizing was... well... rape. It was a way of exerting dominance, control, and other nasty things by a painful and humiliating method. Generally, this was what one did to conquered enemies: women were raped, and men were sodomized.

Taken in this light, it wasn't the fact that someone was gay that was the problem, nor even that love might be expressed through an alternate method. The sin was in being a "Sodomite", which basically meant a rapist. In this case, declaring gays "sodomites" is akin to declaring anyone who has had sex at all a "rapist".

I know this is a controversial topic, and this hypothesis may not be agreeable to everyone on the board, but it certainly sheds a different light on things....
Eagles may soar, but weasels never get sucked into the intake of a jet engine..... :evil
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Nightcrawler/Religious & Spiritual Discussion

Postby Warbird » Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:19 pm

Thank you Maelstrom!!! Sometimes I think I'm the only person who takes that view. It's hard to say if it was meant in the context of rape but it makes sence when you look at the social structure of the day. Especially because some Romans in high positions would take on male companions aside from their wives, weather the man, or sometimes boy, liked it or not.
The one thing I do have a problem with in the argument, even though I myself support it, is that it opens up the idea that the bible was written so long ago that it's obsolete. Too much has changed in the world, they would see it differently now, blah blah blah. It's a moral code more than a hand book for socioty, but it gets a bit sticky when you try and interprate it. No one knows what they meant exactly or what context it was in. Should we ignore or reinterprate anything that we don't agree with because our socioty accepts it? I do support the afore mentiond argument but I don't know if I'm right to do so.
Also, as far as doing good to get into hevan versus only beliving, I think that the good works are more important than beliving in jesus. I personaly belive that a truley good person could go to heavan even if they didn't belive, but a beliver who is also a mass murdurer doesn't have a shot. Maybe I think that the practice of good works is so important because I was raised that way. It is a Catholic thing I guess.
Anyway, i haven't been able to get to a computer so Happy holidays a little late for christmas... but theres still many more.
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Nightcrawler/Religious & Spiritual Discussion

Postby Lauren » Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:07 am

wait...I missed the whole Gay thing? Who said that? I gonna beats them up! no no, I kid, but I probably would have slapped them upside the head if we were talking face to face. It's the way I am sorry ^ ^.

Honestly, I don't really think when you die God does this:

God: all right lemme see here...Joe Schmoe...deadbeat, beat his wife and kids, was straight...sorry Hell for you

Now lemme see here...Alan Cumming...hmmm does charity work, played Kurt in a positive light for Christians...donated money...well you should be in..wait! you're Bi?! Sorry pal, Hell for you!

There is no way that if you are a good person that god's gonna dump ya because ya don't believe in him or are gay, that is preposterous!

In fact, i think there was a part in the Bible where after Jesus died, he went to Hell and he got everyone who was there and shouldn't be out didn't he? so ya see, ya can't believe everything now can ya? Because even Jesus has to correct his old man once in a while.
"I am known as Valentinez Alkalinella Xifax Sicidabohertz Gombigobilla Blue Stradivari Talentrent Pierre Andri Charton-Haymoss Ivanovici Baldeus George Doitzel Kaiser III. Don't hesitate to call." -Vash the Stampede


"No, you see I'm blind in my right eye now... So boring. You know what really makes me pissy? Grunge, Heroine chic, and dying are over. I so hate being behind the curve. Tourism's up." Brett(Alan Cumming) from Urbania
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Nightcrawler/Religious & Spiritual Discussion

Postby rockstar » Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:55 am

Rapists: Bad.
Homosexuals: Not bad.
Bisexuals: Not bad.

That's what the whole X-Men thing is about. When Bobby told his mom that he was a mutant, she asked him the stupidest question:

"Have you tried not being a mutant?"

STUPID STUPID!!!!
"Can you not be who you are? Can you change? Because, you're different. I don't want you to be different. I dont want you to be you."

How many times was a homosexual or a bisexual asked if they could try to be strait.
I just think it's crazy!

"Oh, he's gay. He's going to hell. She's black. She's going to hell. He's Jewish. He's going to hell."

No where does it say that a person's differences automatically condemns him or her to hell.
I think Kurt sends out this message perfectly. He's VERY different, genetically and physically. However, he has the heart and soul of a saint.
"The whole idea of being in a dark superhero film was quite amusing, and I like that it's got a strong moral track about acceptance............. And then of course the idea of flying around, killing people with my tail -- that kind of appealed to me." :tail
- Alan Cumming (Interview with Wizard Magazine)
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