Nightcrawler/Religious & Spiritual Discussion

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Nightcrawler/Religious & Spiritual Discussion

Postby Lauren » Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:28 pm

Which is why I always laugh when my friends get into fights, it's just so funny watching them try to claw at each other!

then again, I'm weird so...yeah
"I am known as Valentinez Alkalinella Xifax Sicidabohertz Gombigobilla Blue Stradivari Talentrent Pierre Andri Charton-Haymoss Ivanovici Baldeus George Doitzel Kaiser III. Don't hesitate to call." -Vash the Stampede


"No, you see I'm blind in my right eye now... So boring. You know what really makes me pissy? Grunge, Heroine chic, and dying are over. I so hate being behind the curve. Tourism's up." Brett(Alan Cumming) from Urbania
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Postby Warbird » Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:19 pm

Wow, most of my girl friends and I aren't the scratching type. We all tend to throw fists. Thinking about it though, we all grew up with older brothers. That probably has something to do with it.
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Postby thylacine » Wed Jan 07, 2004 12:34 am

Quote: C.S. was VERY sexist. "Wars are ugly when women fight"? Ugh.

So... like, when is war ever pretty? Isn't what's going on in the world right now ugly?

I disagree on the cat fight thing... I know people who love to watch women fight. In fact, they would play one against the other to get them into it and watch, smiling. Yeah... guess what? I'm talking about a guy.

Warbird, yeah. I knew you were kidding!

On other stuff... we do not know if hell is real or not, do we? The Bible says so, but we really don't know, do we? Better be good just in case!
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Postby BamfChyck » Wed Jan 07, 2004 1:21 am

[quote]Originally posted by Angel of the Night

but didnt you see in the 2nd part of my post where i said "no i dont hate homosexual people and no God doesnt hate homosexual people either"?
i work with a homosexual man and i love him, he is a wonderful person.

From BAmfChyck
(Why can't I ever make this darn Quote thing work right?!?)


Oh Angel Honey, I wasn't talking about you when I wrote that!
I was thinking about some people who came to protest in my town a few years ago who carried the most hateful signs. Just awful, venomous stuff. Some of you probably know who I'm talking about.
I'm sorry I didn't see this sooner and reply to it. I'm sorry you thought I was talking about you. I was talkiing about the issue you raised, but not what you yourself said.
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Postby Bamf Bunny » Wed Jan 07, 2004 1:34 am

This has already strayed somewhat from the original topic, but doesnt it always?

Please, everyone who responds, keep in mind that people on every side of this issue feel that they have tested their beliefs against their sacred texts. I dont ask anyone to deny what they believe, and Im not going to demand that people who dont agree with me keep quiet, but please, at least, try to post along the lines of "The Antioch Baptist Church teaches ..." instead of "God says ..."

Its one thing to have a discussion of theological questions; its another to say "Youre wrong!" "No, youre wrong!"

btw…whyd i get 2 warnings for one post?

I dont know who else warned you - I only warned you once.
Paulus aber sprach: Ich wünschte vor Gott, es fehle nun an viel oder an wenig, daß nicht allein du, sondern alle, die mich heute hören, solche würden, wie ich bin, ausgenommen diese Bande.
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Postby Angel of the Night » Wed Jan 07, 2004 3:01 am

Originally posted by BamfChyck
Originally posted by Angel of the Night

but didnt you see in the 2nd part of my post where i said "no i dont hate homosexual people and no God doesnt hate homosexual people either"?

From BAmfChyck
(Why cant I ever make this darn Quote thing work right?!?)


Oh Angel Honey, I wasnt talking about you when I wrote that!
I was thinking about some people who came to protest in my town a few years ago who carried the most hateful signs. Just awful, venomous stuff. Some of you probably know who Im talking about.
Im sorry I didnt see this sooner and reply to it. Im sorry you thought I was talking about you. I was talkiing about the issue you raised, but not what you yourself said.


oh thank you BamfChyk :) !
i feel better now!
man im so sorry to hear that! i know i get angry too when i see people do & say hateful things "in Gods name" and call themselves "Christians".
then in the end we have to clean up the mess ( so to speak) and try to explain that we truly arent like that. ugh! :(
thanks too for telling me what you meant!
i really appreciate it! ;)


Whoa! i feel like i just got away with the skin of my teeth there! (or however that phrase goes) .

Anyways, back to the subject of nighty.
well, i have really only one thing to say about the fact that he actually has faith (well, besides the word YAY! :D ).

Dave Cockrum gave nighty life but Mr Clairemont really gave him a soul when he added that feature to nightys character.

Its not everyday you come across a character that is extremely devoted to what he believes in and is also widely accepted by people of so many different backgrounds and beliefs.
(which is not to say i am not eternally grateful to mr Cockrum for creating him).
God bless you both! :)


well…just hope nobody hates me now for stirring up so much contraversy. :(
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Postby Lauren » Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:04 am

aww *huggles Angel* it's ok...just don't do again or I'll be forced to smack you wif my tail! *pat pat*
"I am known as Valentinez Alkalinella Xifax Sicidabohertz Gombigobilla Blue Stradivari Talentrent Pierre Andri Charton-Haymoss Ivanovici Baldeus George Doitzel Kaiser III. Don't hesitate to call." -Vash the Stampede


"No, you see I'm blind in my right eye now... So boring. You know what really makes me pissy? Grunge, Heroine chic, and dying are over. I so hate being behind the curve. Tourism's up." Brett(Alan Cumming) from Urbania
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Postby thylacine » Thu Jan 08, 2004 4:04 pm

Quote: I was thinking about some people who came to protest in my town a few years ago who carried the most hateful signs. Just awful, venomous stuff. Some of you probably know who I'm talking about.

I don't know who you are talking about... But people who hate people like that are sick, in my opinion. They say more about themselves than the group they don't like.

(Reminds me of a scene from the movie with an anti-mutant protest.)
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Postby Maelstrom » Thu Jan 08, 2004 4:30 pm

Originally posted by thylacine
Quote: I was thinking about some people who came to protest in my town a few years ago who carried the most hateful signs. Just awful, venomous stuff. Some of you probably know who I'm talking about.

I don't know who you are talking about... But people who hate people like that are sick, in my opinion. They say more about themselves than the group they don't like.

(Reminds me of a scene from the movie with an anti-mutant protest.)


Unfortunately, I believe I know exactly who you're refering to: "Minister" (and I use that term loosely) Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church. These are the lunatics who literally campaign and "protest" daily that "God Hates Fags". No respectable church (Baptist, Fundamentalist, or otherwise) has anything to do with them, and they're listed as a hate group on the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) website. They're based in Topeka, Kansas. This "church" is actually a single (if large) family unit, headed by a paranoid delusionary patriarch (Fred) who day and night thinks about the fornicating sin of everyone else in the world. The worst thing about this group is that they're mostly lawyers, and they go about threatening to sue (and fulfilling those threats) if anyone tries to put a halt to their raucus hate-mongering.


Yup, they have the God given right to sneer "Did daddy prick your ass. little girl?" to six year old children, but anyone who says different, and tries to stop this verbal abuse, is subjected to lawsuit after lawsuit. The point isn't so much to win these suits as to tie the victim up in court and bankrupt him with costs (kind of like what the Scientologists do).

These people are scary and abusive, but at least they don't have a lot of widescale political pull. They're so extreme and transparently hateful that the most right-wing of the religious right treats them like lepers.

A plug here for the SPLC: it's a site everyone should really take a look at. They monitor, examine, and uncover hate crimes and hate groups around the globe (though they center mainly on the USA). For fanfics especially, if you want to see what anti-mutant hate groups would look like, this is great background material. Here's their website:

http://www.splcenter.org/
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Postby Lauren » Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:26 pm

*sigh* It's people like that that make me wonder about america sometimes. I mean, we let people like this do what they want and they're allowed to sue if someone tries to stop their campaigns! I think we need to be like Germany and have really tough laws against these people before I pay that SOB a little visit...muahaha
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"No, you see I'm blind in my right eye now... So boring. You know what really makes me pissy? Grunge, Heroine chic, and dying are over. I so hate being behind the curve. Tourism's up." Brett(Alan Cumming) from Urbania
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Postby taekwondodo » Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:47 pm

I'm all for free speech - even for psycho losers like that guy - but the litigation bit has *got* to stop. America is just plain sue-happy and it's ridiculous. He shouldn't be able to hound people through law suits, but the legal system in most states (esp. CA) makes it a simple matter for him to do so. Boy that fries me!
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Postby Northstars Love » Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:52 pm

And most importantly, Fred Phelps actually pickets funerals of people that have died of AIDS and saying point blank that they are burning in hell for their sins. He even picketed Matthew Sheppard's funeral (the young man that was killed by those guys in Wyoming) saying he is in the presence of Satan for his homosexuality.

I don't hear much about him anymore tho.
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Postby Lauren » Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:54 pm

I know! Shouldn't he be getting in trouble for doing that? He's interrupting a funeral! that shuld be breaking some kind of law! and if it's not, we need to make it a law! *growls and mumbles nasty words*
"I am known as Valentinez Alkalinella Xifax Sicidabohertz Gombigobilla Blue Stradivari Talentrent Pierre Andri Charton-Haymoss Ivanovici Baldeus George Doitzel Kaiser III. Don't hesitate to call." -Vash the Stampede


"No, you see I'm blind in my right eye now... So boring. You know what really makes me pissy? Grunge, Heroine chic, and dying are over. I so hate being behind the curve. Tourism's up." Brett(Alan Cumming) from Urbania
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Postby taekwondodo » Thu Jan 08, 2004 6:09 pm

Originally posted by **Northstars Love**
And most importantly, Fred Phelps actually pickets funerals of people that have died of AIDS and saying point blank that they are burning in hell for their sins. He even picketed Matthew Sheppard's funeral (the young man that was killed by those guys in Wyoming) saying he is in the presence of Satan for his homosexuality.

I don't hear much about him anymore tho.


Thank goodness for that. Hopefully he'll fade into the obscurity he deserves the heartless bastar*. If there is a Heaven and a Hell (and being an atheist I don't believe there is) you can be certain of just where he'll end up.
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Postby Maelstrom » Thu Jan 08, 2004 6:15 pm

Well, Phelps is sort of in the news again. I guess he got tired of not being the front-runner ;) Here's the link on the SPLC website:

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelrep ... sp?aid=142

Basically, when people decided to allow the Ten Commandments to be displayed on public land, he decided he wanted his little "memorial" to Sheppard put up, too: "Matthew Shepard entered hell October 12, 1998, at age 21 in defiance of God's warning: 'Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is abomination.' Leviticus 18:22." What a sweetie... :rolleyes

Of course, he was flatly turned down, but he's still keeping it up. Ironically, he may well undercut the support out of displaying the Ten Commandments at this rate....

(click the link for a lot more info)
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Postby bluefooted » Thu Jan 08, 2004 6:26 pm

Originally posted by Maelstrom
Basically, when people decided to allow the Ten Commandments to be displayed on public land, he decided he wanted his little "memorial" to Sheppard put up, too: "Matthew Shepard entered hell October 12, 1998, at age 21 in defiance of God's warning: 'Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is abomination.' Leviticus 18:22." What a sweetie... :rolleyes

I remember hearing about this on NPR recently. I practically threw up in my car, I was so disgusted. You have to wonder if some people have any concept of what it means to be a decent human being.
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Postby Maelstrom » Thu Jan 08, 2004 6:48 pm

What gets me is that he has the hubris to think his message is more important than the Ten Commandments! :LOL Talk about arrogance! Yes, he said it plain as day.

A quote from the SPLC article:

"Even as conservatives attempt to place more Ten Commandments monuments around the country, Phelps told a reporter in Rupert that it didn't bother him that his own campaign could undercut those efforts.

'My message is infinitely more important than the Ten Commandments,' he said."


:o "Infinitely more important"?! Wow! He must have a direct line to God! (Or somewhere else.... :evil)

Even the most extreme flaming nutcases would disgree with him on that one. It would be interesting to see the fireworks if he took that idea to a rabbi. The most conservative of them, who hate homosexuality just a little less than Phelps, would have kittens over the very concept of someone thinking their message was more important than Moses' commandments! :rolleyes

Phelps is going to Hell no matter which way you believe. If you believe in the fire-and-brimstone place of eternal punishment, he'll get tossed down there with all the other haters who do evil in His name. And if you believe we basically all go to the same place when we die, he'll sure *think* he was in hell, with all the "heathen homosexuals" walking around up there, smiling, shaking his hand, and welcoming him to forever.... :evil
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Postby Warbird » Thu Jan 08, 2004 9:33 pm

A few years ago, there was a boy in a town near me who was a homosexual and committed suicide. In his note it explained how hard it was for him because he was always afraid of the people around him and what they thaught about him, including his family. His mother put together a remeberative documentary type film to try and enlighten people about people privately suffering like her son, how to recognize it, and how to help before it was too late.

The film was shown in a college near by in September. This is in Pennsylvania, and we had protesters show up from the mid-west. One of them was a mother who said that if either of her sons were gay, she'd wish they were dead. They had horrible picketing signs that offended some people who didn't even support the film. They were rediculousely unappropriate, and of course they had to throw around the slogan "God Hates Fags". Just thinking about them makes me sick.

The entire community was appauled. Luckily becuase of the law that requires a permit for such gatherings, we knew in advance what was going to happen. As a result, the gay community in our area threw a massive peace really in responce. People from all walks of life attended. The shear number of people at the peace protest dwarfed the biggots and they soon left with no conflict.

I'm relating this story because of the issue of free speach more than the issue of homosexuality. Yes there were people allowed to gather hatefully, but a greater number of people were brave enough to speak out against them with one peaceful voice. We were brought together as a community against someone abusing free speech. This showed everyone that peopel do hate, but unity and responsibility is stronger. It actually also helped news of the film spread and more people heard the story of this young man.

Sometimes I wish I could just hit people who say anything about hating any group of people and wish they weren't allowed to speak like that. But then where would it stop? I have to make myself remember, the same rights that allow me to say everyone is equal, are the same rights that let others argue to the contrary. Free speech is a powerful thing that is easily abused. Unfortunatly there's no way to licence people to gain use of it.

As far as the ten commandments being on public display is concerned, I feel that even if you aren't religiouse, they're a good guidline for life. Most are morals that any human on earth would agree with. Some peopel might be offended because of the religiuose connotations, but really, those same people probably follow much of that very moral code in some form. Saying that a young man was rightfully killed and is in hell, has nothing to do with normal human morals. It contradicts the ten commandments. Even if you do think that he was a sinner, What happend to him is a violation of the very commandments that this man feels his message goes along with, as well as a deadly sin. Is he a lunitic? Probably. And it's not like the commandments are being enforced as the law.

ok. my rant is done. I appologize if I've just offended, or pissed any one off. Sorry
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Postby Maelstrom » Thu Jan 08, 2004 9:54 pm

Warbird, if that was your idea of a "rant", I can't wait to see something from you that's well thought out and reflective! :love

So often the haters rely on people getting angry and spitting invective. They're like net trolls. They thrive on it. It gives them an excuse to hate. That's why the Klan tries so hard to incite riots; they want to have a reason to hate and show how "oppressed" they are. :rolleyes

The best response I saw was done by a small town in the Midwest. (Can't remember where, sorry.) They knew that the Klan was going to parade down main street, and as they had a permit, they couldn't stop them. So they just closed the place down. Nobody went to work that day. The Klan got to march down a deserted, empty street with nothing but "closed" signs as far as they could see. They couldn't even find an open restroom. They went back demoralized, denied of their conflict. And the community pulled together and drove them back with passive resistance.

It's hard to walk that line between letting haters walk all over you and fighting back too aggressively: either extreme is just what they want. Evil thrives when good men do nothing, but it also thrives when they react too much.

But the thing that always gives me hope is the knowledge that this kind of thing is now considerd *wrong*. It isn't tacitly understood, it isn't given a wink and a nod. It generates headlines because people see it for the hateful, destructive thing it is. No longer is it "okay" to bash on minorities, to rape women, to drive drunk. No longer can laws get away with quietly stigmatizing the victims. Yes, there are still cases when the law fails, and people are hurt, even killed, due to such "winks and nods". But invariably someone finds out, splays it over the front page, and people are outraged instead of blandly turning to the sports section.
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Postby BamfChyck » Fri Jan 09, 2004 3:06 am

Yeah, it was Phelps. I wasn't sure I wanted to identify him and give him any more attention.

My heart just fell when I saw him outside my church, but we'd decided not to have any response at all to him there. I literally gasped for breath as I drove by and saw those awful signs.
I attended the counter-protest at the capital the following day, carrying my little sign with I John 4:7-8 written on it, and tried not to cry. His family seemed like such a bunch of whack-jobs that I think there must be severe mental illness in his genes. The only comfort I had was that I decided someone that mean must have a nasty personality disorder or something.

One guy had a sign: "God loves Fags, He even loves Fred." I thought that was wonderful!!

I don't know that Phelp's going to hell. I have a hard time thinking God's sending anyone there, because I think once we die and return to Him, He'll heal all the damaged, effed up stuff and make us whole.
And if anyone's damaged, it's Phelps.

And Angel, Honey, I really am sorry about the mix-up. You see how I wasn't thinking about you? I'm sending you virtual hugs!!
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Postby Lauren » Fri Jan 09, 2004 4:44 am

honestly, don't these people read the Bible and actually understand what it says half the time? I mean, last time I checked there was this little part about not judging people! Jeez, I always want to punch people when this kind of thing comes up at my school...*sighs*
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"No, you see I'm blind in my right eye now... So boring. You know what really makes me pissy? Grunge, Heroine chic, and dying are over. I so hate being behind the curve. Tourism's up." Brett(Alan Cumming) from Urbania
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Postby Wolvertique » Fri Jan 09, 2004 1:15 pm

"Minister" (and I use that term loosely) Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church.
--Hee hee. His group was coming to protest at my university a few years ago because it was hosting a conference for denominations and groups within Christianity who support gay people. So our Pagan group supported them by supplying volunteers to them.

I figure supporting almost anything Phelps and his followers hate is good. He protested at Mr. Rogers' funeral, you know. He has issues. I have a friend who thinks Phelps really is a closeted homosexual, and he may be right.

No, the Ten Commandments are not just generic moral laws. They are very specific religious laws, and do not tolerate my polytheism and worship of Gods other than the Jewish God YHWH. They do not allow for our First Amendment to the Constitution, freedom of religious exercise among our people. They do not belong on government property, and they do not apply to everyone. And I, for one, am very glad of it.
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Postby Lauren » Fri Jan 09, 2004 1:43 pm

Wait...he protestd at Mr. Rogers' funeral?! What was wrong with Mr. Rogers to him?
"I am known as Valentinez Alkalinella Xifax Sicidabohertz Gombigobilla Blue Stradivari Talentrent Pierre Andri Charton-Haymoss Ivanovici Baldeus George Doitzel Kaiser III. Don't hesitate to call." -Vash the Stampede


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Postby Wolvertique » Fri Jan 09, 2004 1:46 pm

Mr. Rogers is for loving everybody, regardless of sexual orientation, I'd guess. You could probably find out for sure by going to Phelps' little hate site, but that place makes me sick so I ain't gonna.
Mystique: "How would you like to come see some really awful black velvet paintings of bullfighters?"
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Mystique: "Just bullfighters...that's all they have on my motel room wall."
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Postby Lauren » Fri Jan 09, 2004 1:56 pm

ewww...I'm not even gonna touch that thing with a 49 and a half foot pole! what kind of freak doesn't lik Mr. Rogers? I loved Mr. Rogers when I was little. The puppets were the best!
"I am known as Valentinez Alkalinella Xifax Sicidabohertz Gombigobilla Blue Stradivari Talentrent Pierre Andri Charton-Haymoss Ivanovici Baldeus George Doitzel Kaiser III. Don't hesitate to call." -Vash the Stampede


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