Dave what do you think of John Byrne's penciling of X-Men?

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Dave what do you think of John Byrne's penciling of X-Men?

Postby Northstars Love » Thu Aug 21, 2003 8:18 am

I can't find this topic anywhere. I looked but can't find it.

Dave when you relinquished pencils to John Byrne in UC #108 was it your decision or Marvels? I noticed you went on to coloring right after. I like your penciling a lot. But I hate to say this, and please don't take it the wrong way, but it was Byrne that got me so excited about reading the New X-Men. I just love his style. Similiar, I like George Perez's style from the Teen Titans and JLA from the 80's as well. But then I see you back in UC issue #145 penciling once more. Again, was this Marvels decision? If it was, do you feel a little jealous(just a little:?) when Byrne was getting a pat on the back from Marvel making the X-Men greater than they ever have been? Dark Phoenix Saga UC 134-137 for example. Of course I'm repeating what some comic dealers were telling me in the late 70's and early 80's that it was the Byrne/Claremont duo that caught the eye of many new readers.

But you are a winner with me Dave.:thumbup If it wasn't for you we wouldn't have Nighty:D Or even a Nighty to drool over**brings out the plastic sheet again thinking about a nekkid Nighty**;pant :LMAO
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Dave what do you think of John Byrne's penciling of X-Men?

Postby Dark Bamf » Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:39 am

Don't get me started on Byrne.

My opinion of his art is colored by the fact that I think personally, he's an arrogant, first-class jerk.

His art on X-Men was interesting, and sometimes innovative, but it was also as simplistic as a Saturday morning cartoon--which may explain the wide appeal he has. Yes, X-Men sales took off when he took over the book. You may not have noticed, though, that sales continued to increase when I came back.

My leaving X-Men--on both occasions--was voluntary. The first time, I had accepted a staff job at Marvel, to design covers, not to color. I couldn't do a nine-to-five job, with four hours of commute each day, and continue drawing X-Men.

My coming back to X-Men was a serendipitous accident. I'd been asked to pencil X-Men in Marvel Fanfare and it was so much fun I mentioned to Chris Claremont (on a Saturday) that if Byrne left the book, I'd like to have it back.

The following Monday, Byrne quit the book, and I returned, after one fill-in by Brent Anderson.

Was I envious of Byrne? Probably a little, because he's frequently touted as being more important to the book than I am. But if I hadn't created Storm, Nightcrawler, Colossus, Phoenix, Mystique, Lilandra, Deathbird, the Shi'ar Imperial Guard and the Starjammers, there would have been an entirely different X-Men book, and possibly no X-Men publishing empire. Possibly even no X-Men book at all. And probably no X-Men movies.

And if, instead of leaving DC I'd stayed on the Legion of Superheroes, we might be watching Legion movies these days. :p

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Dave what do you think of John Byrne's penciling of X-Men?

Postby Maelstrom » Fri Aug 22, 2003 5:17 am

This almost sounds like the makings of a What If...? comic. "What if Cockrum had stayed with Legion instead of going back to X-Men?" :D

The only problem with What If...? comics is that they tend to end in tragedy and massive death and destruction for everyone involved (probably because the writers were free to do whatever they wanted in the AU, and they could get out all their sadomasochistic tendencies :evil ). Sadly, this episode would tragically end with Dave's fatal pickle incident in the lunch room, Paty accidentally listening to Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon backwards and getting sucked into an alternate dimension, and Byrne getting trampled while he walks his chihuahua in front of a rampaging horde of toe weasels. (It would take the entire book for him to die; weasels aren't known for being very heavy.)
Eagles may soar, but weasels never get sucked into the intake of a jet engine..... :evil
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Dave what do you think of John Byrne's penciling of X-Men?

Postby Northstars Love » Fri Aug 22, 2003 7:06 am

Ohh:ooh....but I'm glad you created the X-Men Dave.**catches the drool thinking about Nighty again** I couldn't imagine what the X-Men would be like if you didn't come up with your ideas of what the New X-Men should look like. When I read your post I could see a little anger there. But I could understand that. There's always someone you work with that thinks they are better than other people and I suppose it's no different in the comic book world. But Byrne is with DC now isn't he? Doing Wonder Woman? Legion Of Superheroes movie? Hmm...don't think it would have the same affect as the X-Men movie would. Although I wouldn't mind a live JLA movie though:scratch Thanks for answering Dave:)
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Dave what do you think of John Byrne's penciling of X-Men?

Postby Uncanny » Wed May 24, 2006 8:55 pm

"it was the Byrne/Claremont duo that caught the eye of many new readers."

Really? When John Byrne took over Dave Cockrum I was upset !
Sure, quickly I grew to like John's run more and more to the point
I would be upset again when he left too.

BUT no matter how good Byrne's X-Men had been it has never reached
the level of pleasure I got from the first run of Dave, NEVER.

In fact, 30 years later, now being an old guy I can tell that I never totally
forgave Dave for leaving the first time. Something broke back then and
it never got fixed, not even by Dave's return to the serie.

Because it was how much I loved Dave's run as a kid... and I wanted
"my" X-Men to go on for ever under his pencils.

Damn ! Even now I still somehow resent Dave robbing me of "my" X-Men.
Each time I reread my Essential X-men and turn the last page before
the Byrne's run I feel the same !

You did them too good to be true Dave !

After Byrne then Cockrum left I tried to follow the serie without passion
and quickly gave up. I would just come back from time to time just in case...
but I was more disappointed each time as for the most part it seemed
to have been sinking into a bottomless barrel of mediocrity.

As for the movie, it's entertaining but has little to do with the X-Men I know.

Those were the Cockrum ones, first run. Everything else is just a forgery.

My X-Men are proudly standing on shelves next to Kirby's FF, Andru's Spider-Man,
Ditko's Spider-Man, Gene Colan's Daredevil, Starlin's Captain Marvel, etc...

Nice compagny isn't it ?
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Dave what do you think of John Byrne's penciling of X-Men?

Postby Bamferino » Mon May 29, 2006 12:34 am

Mr. Cockrum, I think we can pretty much all agree that you are the innovator here and a true creative force in the Marvel Universe. In any universe! Thank you for all you have given us in the way of character creations to enjoy over the years. B.
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Dave what do you think of John Byrne's penciling of X-Men?

Postby SamKarns » Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:52 pm

There was an illustration done on JBF by Mr. Byrne reminiscent to your Giant Size X-Men Cover and the Phoenix Rising, he also displayed a comparison of your work as well. What I found was your work was very detailed and realistic. I was shocked at how good your work is, and I love Mr. Byrne's work, your characters display a rising action to the scene which amazed me.
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Dave what do you think of John Byrne's penciling of X-Men?

Postby Dark Bamf » Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:38 am

In 2004, while I was in the hospital fighting for my life, Byrne made a crack about my work on his website which really pissed me off--and infuriated my wife so that she banned him from the Dave Cockrum tribute book: he said, 'Well, if you put enough lines down, SOME of them are BOUND to be in the right place.'

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Dave what do you think of John Byrne's penciling of X-Men?

Postby Angelique » Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:44 pm

So that's why he's not in the book! I was wondering. (tsk tsk-s Byrne for such a remark at such a time)
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Dave what do you think of John Byrne's penciling of X-Men?

Postby Dark Bamf » Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:56 pm

It's pretty typical of Byrne. He made some such insensitive crack about Joe Quesada going to Florida because his mom died, and got himself banned from Marvel. And he pissed off Christopher Reeve fans everywhere by sniping--on the event of Chris's death--that Chris was not a heroic figure in spite of his epic struggle against his broken back and efforts to be an example for people everywhere with similar afflictions.

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Dave what do you think of John Byrne's penciling of X-Men?

Postby Angelique » Sat Jun 03, 2006 1:52 am

What did you think of Harlan Ellison's contribution to the book, by the way?
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Dave what do you think of John Byrne's penciling of X-Men?

Postby cockrumFANrick » Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:54 am

John Byrne's work was only as good as his inker who cleaned up his mess. If you notice, I think it's Terry Austin's inks that makes his run on X-Men sharp. Austin inks has cleaned up many artists work and turned them into masterpieces. All work done by Byrne subsequently, just look at that sloppy looking "X-Men: The Hidden Years" and everything he's done for the past 20 years (Namor, She-Hulk, West Coast Avengers, Wonder Woman, Doom Patrol, JLA, etc.) has been lazy, uninspired and pretty awful. He's probably such an arrogant guy (and his fan un-friendliness is legendary) and hard to work with, nobody wants to ink his stuff anymore, so he does his own inks, which is basically horrible tracing over crappy pencils. I'm glad he wasn't part of the Cockrum Tribute Book. Dave Cockrum deserves both good artists and good people to support him.
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Dave what do you think of John Byrne's penciling of X-Men?

Postby Dark Bamf » Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:45 pm

Originally posted by Angelique
What did you think of Harlan Ellison's contribution to the book, by the way?


It totally cracked me up. I'm an Ellison fan from a long way back, and I was once very flattered to hear him admit to liking my work too. To have him admit it in public (in however crooked a fashion) was mind-blowing.

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Dave what do you think of John Byrne's penciling of X-Men?

Postby Paty » Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:20 pm

:magneto

OK...since my name was invoked...heh heh...whatch out what you invoke, it may come looking for you... I shall, once again, hold forth on the Ubiquitous, Sanctimonious, Arrogant, Overrated and Annoying John Byrne.

When Byrne made the crack that go him banned from the Tribute Book... and YES it was ME who told Cliff..."Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES LET bYRNE SULLY WITH HIS HYPOCRACY, Dave's Tribute."... Everyone else poured out love and thanks to him that truely, in my opinion, helped him to recover. It really did! Knowing that so many of his peers and even people he didnn't know, liked his work and loved him as a person and artist... was what kept him alive and fighting. He had thought he was over the hill and forgotten and it had sent him into a talilspin that had allowed disease to just eat him up. You gotta have the will to live to fight off bad stuff... and he had lost it. But everyone coming out of the woodwork and lauding him and wishing him to get well did the trick... and I wans't having that wonderful book sullied by Mr. Smarmbucket. No sir! I had had just enough of Byrne's mouth and attitude.

Back when he first took over the X book from Dave, he was an arrogant bastard who would come into the offices... twice a year from his home in Canada... and within fifteen minutes have virtually EVERYONE in the office... with the exception of Sterno... thirsting for his blood. Literally!!! In other threads, I hav descrigbed how I once saved Byrne from a beating or death at the hands of an enraged staffer... if you are interested in reading it it is down there in the old threads somewhere...
But the upshot is that Byrne was a realtive unknown... having done some FF while Dave was establishing the X book as a winner...and as Claremont's talent matured, a book to shape the X universe and create a major financial leg that Marvel seems bound and determined to undermine, destroy and erase. go figure...What? they think they can do better? BULLSHIT! ... no, Paty... tell us what you REALLY think...

Byrne pissed me off before I ever met him by drawing me as one of his robots.. ala Rog 2000...only he designated me PATY69... impertinant for someone who hadn't met me yet and didn't know I am no man's meat unless I chose dinner. Shooter never learned that either...stupid boys..both of them. Byrne thrived at Marvel probably because he toadied to Shooter... as much as a gawd can toady...because everyone KNOWS Byrne created everything and if he hasn't created it, it hasn't been created... cuz HE weill tell you so himself! And who would doubt the voice of GAWD?

For twenty or twenty five years I watched Byrne badmouth, sneer at and otherwise denigrate other artists and writers who were so far his superior it wasn't evn funny... and it wasn't until he ticked Quesada off that he finally ran out of luck.
For twenty five years he bounced back and forth from company to company pissing off people, getting kicked out when they couldnn't take it any more... going over to the other company.. cuz he did have a great big fan base... the saturday morning cartoons, very popular, that his artwork resembled made sure of that... so he would go with his fanbase and get another job at the other company until he pissed off someone high enough there, too... then it would be back to company one until the brouhaha quieted down and they forgot. He uses the same technique on his own forum... telling the most outrageous and biased lies... making up his own version of history and expecting his fans to believe it... until some of them who have been around and KNOW the truth bring him to task for lying... Then ehe effectively banishes them from his site, waits a while until he has a bunch of NEW believers and lays the lies on them as truth. He has had to change his website a number of times, I am told, as disgruntled and enraged former fans sign in to catch him in his lies and "out" him. I believe his own forum goes under "Byrne Robotics" these days and is very closed with only diehard Byrne fans extant... and those dwindling rapidly.

As oto his working...Well, having pissed off DC with the Chris Reeve comments, he then went on to badmouth the most recent superman movie, I am told, and when DC said "stop it" he didn't. Last I heard they had booted him off The Atom book and he was looking for work as DC wanted no part of his arrogance any more. especially notw that his fan base is nowhere near as large as it used to be. So he sets his fanboys to hound the internet with desultory art...lauding it and saying"Hey, shouldn't Byrne be drawing X Men again?" In a pigs eye! I am legally blind and I could do a better job than some of the artwork I have seen coming outta him these days. Maybe Austin.. who is a very good inker... could save it... maybe not.. but I do notice a decidedlly Cockrumesque tone to the drawings... much more complicated than his usual work..So he's still trying to ride Cockrum to glory... what else is new?

OK... so I may be biased..having been married to Dave for over twenty eight years... going on twenty nine...but Byrne is one artist who should have been left in the dust a long time ago... to my way of thinking. He was the only artist... and we had some bad ones back then... that I ever complained to Stan about. The merchandising wanted good clean representational art...not cartoony doodles...so I rarely used his art in the merchandising. some merchandisers asked for it, but rarely... and when they did, we complied... but his art was always too cartoony for my taste... and I am an accomplished critic of good ... and bad... art. Then you add his personality...or lack thereof... and you have a very vile brew.

He did do one piece of storytelling, however, that made me say"Hey, Byrne can actually DRAW when he puts his mind to it!!!" And I colored it. It was a piece for a summer issue of ElfQuest.. when it was being put out by Father Tree Press/WARP Graphics... the Pini's own imprint. It was a very nice piece and I was really impressed with the art. It still had some of Byrne's cartoony elements, but it was wonderfully illustrative and had detailed and lush backgrounds and settings... a real departure from his superhero style, for sure. He can draw, when he is not being lazy and sllipshod and "lets turn out as many pages as possible in as little time as possible, so do n't put in backgrounds if you don't have to". Which mode permeated his tenure at Marvel to the Nth degree. The two issues... one being all white...where snowbird fights something white in a blinding snowstorm... and all you see on the pages is wind streaks and word balloons... and one being all black with Namor at the bottom of the sea... where there is no light...at all... unless you take it down with you... so the whole issue is mostly black with word balloons. Cute? I don't think the kids who plopped down their bucks for that comic appreciated the humor... or the supposed realism... they wanted comic art and a decent story.
Arrogance. And editorial staff that let him get away with it for lo, these many years. Maybe Mr. Quesada is his comeuppance at last! YOU GO!, Joey!!! Bang on! Mr. Q! Don't ever let that asswipe back at Marvel!

Paty
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